If objective morality doesnt exist, what justifies libertarianism?

Nandnor:

I don’t think the question you are asking here is that difficult, but it’s not exactly the same as the question you asked in the OP, which mentioned justification.

The reason one might keep a libertarian ethical argument in one’s head is because they have to make a choice in a situation where the results of that choice are not immediately apparent, but can only be known through abstract or theoretical knowledge. In some circumstances, one doesn’t know which choice or path is in one’s self-interest without some theoretical framework to guide one’s choices. So we can consider “the libertarian ethical argument in one’s head” as the particular theory each libertarian is working with, that instructs him/her that following xyz path, or making X choice in a given circumstance, is in their self-interest.

For example, we seem to know whether driving in the right or left lane of a two lane highway is in our self-interest. There is nearly unanimous agreement on this type of choice.

But there is less agreement on whether attending a government university is in one’s self-interest or not. Apparently, abstract reasoning is needed to make these kinds of choices. One has to keep a particular theory “in one’s head” as an aid in making choices where the results of the choice are remote, perhaps counter-intuitive, not immediately apparent, etc… (Menger calls it “knowledge extending beyond immediate experience”)

The reason that libertarians, utilizing libertarian social theory, generally try to abstain from or avoid things such as: making money from the state, using state power for self interests, exploiting the non-libertarian aspects of intellectual and regular property, etc., is that libertarian social theory tells them that doing such things is counter to their own rightly understood self-interest. Some of the consequences of doing these things are not immediately apparent. Some of the consequences are remote—beyond immediate experience. Thus an abstract theory is required to understand the consequences of doing these things.

So understanding why libertarians refer to an intellectual construct or theory that guides their actions is not particularly difficult.

But this is not the same thing as the question as to what “justifies” libertarianism. When we say “justify,” we now introduce intersubjectivity

Question: What is your justification for what you just did? Because I’m not happy about it, and am considering retaliation.

Or again: I believe your expressed plan will have “bad” consequences (consequences detrimental to my interests). Thus: Justify your plan to me. Tell my why I should support it.

That is “justification.” It deals with intersubjectivity, usually intersubjective conflict.

Concepts such as justification and argumentation, as these concepts are used in libertarian ethics, are used, as Hoppe writes, in an attempt to establish “that intersubjectively meaningful norms must exist.” (TOS, p.130)(underline and italics added)

The question you ask above can be answered without referring to the concept of justification and a theory of intersubjective norms. Your question above can be answered in terms of the theory of action, in terms of methodological individualism, and whether the individual’s means can bring about the ends he strives to attain.

The question you ask in the OP, as it specifically asks about justification, introduces the concept of intersubjectivity, since the theories that utilize the concept of justification generally refer to a system incorporating the idea of intersubjectivity.

No they aren’t. They are non-sequitors. Can you show me where in Rothbards writing (I’ve read the Ethics of Liberty twice) he actually derives the homesteading principle or proportionality instead of merely asserting it? How does he go from self-ownership to “so when you mix your labor with an object you own it”?

Read from the second heading “Property in Bodies”, especially footnote 9, referencing Hoppe and Rothbard. I think that is what you are looking for probably. link

It isn’t logic and epistemology. Its a doctrine. A clumsily-defined, never agreed upon, unproven doctrine. That has been used to “justify” far more than liberty. Its no different than religion. The good thing is liberty doesn’t need to be justified, coercion does.

Intellect isn’t a doctrine.

thing is intellect isn’t a doctrine.

Meanwhile it takes an intellectual grasping of what liberty is to develop an epistemology upon liberty.

It doesn’t matter the source of liberty for the sake of this post. I am not bringing up metaphysics directly. Intellect doesn’t necessarily need be the origin/source of liberty. I’m not talking about the source of liberty.

To be aware of what anything is involves the intellect/mind. Grasp whatever it is, intellectually, and in this case, liberty and then develop an epistemology, understand the logic, etc…

strawman

Yes. In the natural law tradition negative liberty need not to be justified. I refrain in peace why in my innocence do I need to justify anything? Your preaching to the choir.

If by liberty you mean freedom from violence or coercion then it is a positive obligation and does need to be justified. Liberty, coercion, indeed all normative propositions must be justified as the suppose obligation.

Yes, intellect not natural law. The presumption of liberty, like Innocence, isn’t natural law. You are either purposefully conflating vastly different ideas or are very confused.

Obligations correspond with rights, liberty is a lack of rights and therefore obligations. The burden of proof is simply on the actor.

I’ve had this happen with you before. You become intellectually dishonest at times. You move words around to suit your needs. Of course not “yes”. I am not saying something you agree with. Do I need to let you know that? This will be, hopefully, my last post in this discussion with you therefore. I can’t stand dishonest people. Intellect is natural in the natural law tradition. Intellectual law, natural law - same thing. lex-ratio : look that concept up.

I’ve brought this up many times before. I had as a signature some time ago lex-ratio. This is a well-thought out intellectual interpretation that has a centuries old tradition. Intellect is natural in the natural law tradition. sorry you don’t know that.

for those that want at least one source here.

It should be obvious, but the quote you offer doesn’t derive any theory of property (specifically Lockean homesteading) from self-ownership. Furthermore, the article linked merely asserts that lockean homesteading is the most socially enabling and practical system of property. It does NOT derive it from self-ownership.

I’m not quite sure we disagree. Perhaps we are arguing past each other. In your understanding, can liberty be infringed upon? If person A punches person B, could person A claim that person B infringed upon his liberty, and must justify his infringement? Or does person B have full liberty of action as does person A (but this is liberty in an ontological and non-normative sense), and person A must justify his claim that B must abstain from certain actions?

We have and you are still just as confused. All natural rights philosophers either have an ultimate value or assume some truth is self-evident. Read the paper you provided. Take for instance, the “natural law” espoused by Aquinas he just assumed norms of behaviour, and then built his first rule of morality off of it.

There isn’t such a thing as “intellectual law.”

Yes, liberty can be infringed upon. Neither have the right to punch one another.

I’m not confused. strawman. Can you say anything of substance other than saying “confused” or “religion” when it’s not true?

It’s not a paper. It’s a book.

Theory is different than understanding the workings of intellect and how a human comes to understand reality. A theory may develop out of this, but epistemology is different from metaphysics and logic, etc…

Aquinas developed a particular theory, but he still used his intellect. All people use their intellect. It is human nature. I’m simply letting you know what natural means in the natural law tradition. It means intellect. That does not espouse a particular theory. It is an understanding of definitions. Obviously you bringing this up about Aquinas is to point out you are focused upon differing theories of natural law, but I’m not talking about any one theory. I’m referring to the definition of natural in said tradition. There is another concept called positive law which focuses upon will. Natural law derives it’s understanding from the intellect as opposed to positivism which derives it’s way from will power alone ie. government legislation.

Law is made up of principles and axioms. The human intellect discovers such things. Some people wonder where these patterns/principles come from ie God, purely the material universe, etc… but I am not saying where these patterns come from. But they are here. There are principles to be discovered. They are present. The human intellect is able to grasp these principles. To know anything, being human, is to involve the intellect. There is a process how knowledge comes about ie. via the senses, input from principles to help provide form to some final theory, etc… Some of these laws or ethics may find an origin in the heart, as some people like to point out here in this forum, but again, that’s fine, but it takes an intellect to grasp the origins of anything. The intellect performs metaphysical exercises. My skin doesn’t understand principles, my intellect does. It’s a simple understanding of definitions, your conflating definitions about natural/intellect with the various theories that people have development across time using their intellect. I haven’t espoused a particular theory other than I did note negative liberty at one point, but that’s a concept and I can’t say that one concept classifies as a whole theory. It doesn’t. I also did bring up where two varying theories can be developed from. One of intellect to reason then will. Another (positivism) that begins with will then tries to reason out what has happened afterwards.

Wilderness,

What you are arguing for is completely removed from the topic of “natural law.” Yes, Aquinas used his intellect to create a theory, as did Hobbes. So what? You seem to have missed “natural law” as a specific concept and now confined yourself to defending “natural” as being equal to intellect. Who cares? That isn’t the topic. All natural law theories fail. Natural law simply doesn’t exist, there isn’t any pattern or principles out there to be discovered. Now if you want to say that ethics stem from the “heart” then we are on the same page, but to say such a thing is to completely admit that there isn’t an objective ethic and therefore natural law, at least in the traditional sense of the term.

well in the natural law tradition natural means intellect. i don’t know why that would bother you. it’s a simple fact to comprehend.

Yes it is.

the intellect fails?

no principles eh? ok dude.

I’m not talking about the origin of ethics or anything. You say “stem”. I wasn’t referring to “stem”. You are obviously the one confused. I am not directly talking about the metaphysics of ethics.

whatever objective mean… i don’t know. so I’m not going to understand you here.

and therefore the intellect…

Law is discovered by the intellect. No matter where the origins of the law.

Your repeating the same sheer ignorance. Natural law refers to a theory that says there is a law (of human conduct) that is valid everywhere. This law has never been discovered or proven to exist. It has merely been posited. Even claiming its discovered by intellect just begs the question.

LOLOLOLOLOL. That made my day…

Then liberty as you see it places a positive obligation on the would-be aggressor. The notion of a ‘negative right’ is really just a way of formulating a positive right. Your ‘negative right’ to liberty is really a positive obligation on everyone else.

The two different uses of the word liberty (normative and ontological) and the equivocation between them form the foundation of my critique of the common understanding of Jasay. Jasay’s epistemological argument justifies liberty, but not ‘negative rights’ or libertarian ethics. It justifies the pure liberty of action. It posits the elimination of obligations that are not epistemically justified, such as “you should not smoke”, “you should not drive over the speed limit”, and (controversially) “you should not abuse me/harm me/kill me”.

Jasay’s argument can be used against ‘statist morality’, but not the state as an organization. If said organization admits “neither of us have an obligation, neither me to you nor you to me. Our actions are not moral, but neither are they immoral.” then Jasay’s argument is irrelevant.

If I didn’t get my point across, I will be glad to clarify. I am in a hurry and perhaps being overly-short and oversimplifying.

Intellect is what realizes metaphysically anything. The theory of knowledge, the epistemology, involves the intellect making the realization. That’s what natural means in natural law. Yes, it involves a theory or theories. But even as some say, ‘morals are written on the heart’ - and - therefore it is the intellect that reads what is written thereof. If that’s the way ones theory goes. How I come to this knowledge, my epistemology based on the metaphysics of what is - is - that the intellect is what is realizing, performing metaphysics, and coming up with an epistemology - based on logic there will not be any contradictions in the development of any theory.

You are not discussing what I am discussing. I can see that. I have given you knowledge, so, it is not something of ignorance in which I speak. I am giving knowledge. That means I am not being ignorant. But your assertions have been vacuous from the beginning of this discussion. Deploying “religion” “ignorance” “confused” and other strawmen. I ponder your need for deception, but oh well.

You can disagree with my knowledge but that would only mean it is upon you to either simply disagree or refute. Disagree is simple disagreement. Refutation would involve a theory based on principles and facts that differ from what I am talking about. Yet you find it wrong for somebody to punch, in other words, aggress against a person’s liberty. I do too. Therefore it is your epistemology that seems to differ from mine. I understand intellect is what realizes what is. I don’t know how you can express any reason to me otherwise because that would involve your intellectual discernment too. So I don’t know, quite frankly, what you are going on about.

No it doesn’t. Intellect discovers anything that you argue even against me. It is the involvement of your intellect that tries to put forth an assumption. That’s all you’ve done is assume. You deny principles so all that you are left with is using my premise and deducting from the universal premise thereof based only upon possiblities. Since you don’t put forth your own premise and give me knowledge, you are left with what is called an assumption. I am coming from a position of certainity and you are coming from a position of possiblities and opinion.

All based on human action ie. argumentation.