The government is extremely efficient at killing people. It is one of the main things it does!
You think some cave dwellers on the other side of an ocean, were able to infiltrate the U.S., become ace pilots, get in as the flight crews on strategic planes, use box cutters and boxes to take over planes, and then crash them into some of the most well-known buildings in the world, all by themselves?
Easily. It happened and happens every day. Not all illegal immigrants are from Mexico or South America. There are plenty from the other side of the ocean.
If by ace you mean, “able to steer once it’s in the air,” forgetting about taking off and landing, sure, that’s not unbelievable. A few dozen hours of flight school, if that, would be all they’d need.
They were passengers, not part of the crew. Buying tickets and showing up an hour early isn’t nearly that difficult.
Seeing as how many other planes had been hijacked before, this is at least plausible. Slit a few throats and everyone else falls in line. Up until that point, being on a hijacked plane meant you would be a hostage, and usually would be eventually freed. It would be less believable that the passengers or crew expected to crash into a building.
All that requires is steering and knowing where the buildings are. The flight school hours covers the first part. The fact that the buildings are, “some of the most well-known buildings in the world,” covers the second.
Sarcasm?
No, I am honestly asking the question.
They did not live in caves. Mohamed Atta studied engineering and graduated with a degree in Architecture. All the pilots were trained at U.S. flight schools. No one said they were “ace” pilots but rather competent enough to crash planes into buildings not land them on aircraft carriers. They did not get in as flight crews but passengers via the ultra complicated method of buying airline tickets. They used box cutters and claimed to have bombs.
I think you make very valid points to the other points I made. However, I think this one is the main point of contention I have.
They weren’t cave dwellers.
They didn’t infiltrate, they were passengers.
Flight simulators can do wonders, especially when you don’t need to land or take off.
Planes have been hijacked before.
They weren’t all by themselves, it was a conspiracy (by definition).
Yes, my points have been thoroughly refuted. I was wrong. You were right. I am stupid. You are smart. I am ugly. You are pretty.
But they are competent enough to land a man on the moon and get the western world to send a coalition invasion force to Iraq on a lie?
And then of course, you would have to believe a bunch of guys with some flight school training and boxcutters are competent enough to pull it off. I mean, it’s very libertarian, that a small group of motivated people could outperform the government at organization. But if 19 guys can beat the entire anti-terrorism establishment on a shoe string budget, why couldn’t Ron Paul win one state? Why can’t the LP get more than 3 or 4 % in the general election?
Just food for thought. I’m asking questions, not proposing conclusions.
Marc Stevens makes a great point about the “incompetent government” theory (paraphrased).
If you’re still voluntarily paying them taxes, they aren’t incompetent.
Just a thread update: I’m currently in the process of splitting this thread up. This thread was meant as a discussion of conspiracy theories revolving Israeli foreknowledge and/or contribution to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. This thread is not meant to discuss “no planer” conspiracy theories or other absurd and easily debunked conspiracy theories (e.g. “free fall” myths, WTC7 myths, Pentagon no-planer myths, and “molten steel” myths).
The point of this thread is simple: there exists evidence for a large pre-9/11 Israeli spy network within the United States that had at least some foreknowledge of a large terrorist attack, as reported by several reputable news sources (e.g. the Sunday Herald, Die Zeit, Le Monde, Salon, Fox News, etc.). This doesn’t mean that there was a conspiracy theory of any kind involved in 9/11, it’s quite possible that the 9/11 attacks are an example of bureaucratic failure (the failure of Mossad to inform US intelligence agencies and/or the failure of US intelligence agencies to act appropriately).
With regard to Israeli surveillance, could it be as simple as the fact they were monitoring what was happenning but did not want to inform the US, in order not to compromise other intelligence activities they were doing in the US?
I’m certainly no “truther” but I think the inefficient argument is wrong. Governments are inefficient because of incorrect incentive systems and the knowledge/ calculation problems as spelled out by Hayek and Mises respectively. In regards to 9/11 there’s certainly no a priori reason that a few hundred people wouldn’t be able to pull it off. Now, a related but more correct criticism would question whether there is any possible system which would make it in the conspirators interests to cooperate and not defect. Given the number of people necessary to pull of 9/11 (assuming the government did it), I’m inclined to say that it wouldn’t be possible.
To be honest, people here are forgetting context. In a post 9/11 world it just isn’t conceivable that this could happen. But before then planes that were hijacked were landed and the passengers released for ransom.
Giles, I want to reply to you because you are forgetting context. But this is a new discussion, and I don’t want KK’s thread to be jacked further. So I will move it later and reply once that has been done.
Michael Shermer did a show studying things like polygraph tests. The finding was that they are more than less bogus.
To be honest I think Krazy Kaju’s point (if true) would illustrate an important point of conspiracy theories: they’re just not necessary. States don’t need to carry out these events in order to use them. It’s analogous to the Reichstag fire, which wasn’t caused by Hitler or his cronies (at least, not as far as most historical evidence goes) but nonetheless helped Hitler’s campaign more than any other event.