Income tax

[1billion]

Firstly I am obvoiusly against this ideologically, but when argueing about the income tax I hit a few ruts.

First off the claim the 16th amendment allows for an income tax. But in Stantan vs Baltic Mining the supreme court ruled that the amendment did not allow any new taxation(I believe, correct me if I am wrong).

I have also heard that in that same case, they said that the income tax was already legal under a direct tax which is allowed by constituion.

“The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States”-Constituion

Thanks.

[nazgulnarsil]

you’re working off the assumption that the government’s authority to tax must come from a legal legitimacy. this is not so. the government’s authority to tax comes from a gun. laws “ratified” by the “majority” is just a veneer by which power is disguised.

[1billion]

I

@nazgulnarsil

you’re working off the assumption that the government’s authority to tax must come from a legal legitimacy. this is not so. the government’s authority to tax comes from a gun. laws “ratified” by the “majority” is just a veneer by which power is disguised.

I understand that, as I said I am against that, I’m am merely talking about it being as constitutional(or not).

[nazgulnarsil]

the constitution as it is written hasn’t been followed since the civil war. the constitution was written to govern a federation of mostly autonomous states. the vast majority of federal laws written after the civil war would have been found unconstitutional before it.

[1billion]

yea i agree with that

[Spideynw]

There are plenty of refutations on the internet if you google it. But I myself do not care to argue it, since the Constitution is illegitimate in the first place. And anyone that thinks it is illegal will say it is illegal no matter what you show them.

[1billion]

@Spideynw

There are plenty of refutations on the internet if you google it. But I myself do not care to argue it, since the Constitution is illegitimate in the first place. And anyone that thinks it is illegal will say it is illegal no matter what you show them.

I was just wondering because I was argueing with my Constituional law teacher about it.

I am not claiming to endorse it, but argue in the confines of it for the sake of arguing.

[Laughing_Man]

Just destroy the legitimacy of the Constitution, that rids you of your income tax problem. I suggest Lysander Spooner’s No Treason.

[nazgulnarsil]

I suggest Ideological Origins of the American Revolution supplemented with primary sources such as this:

http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1130&Itemid=264

or for something more thourough

Peter Oliver S Origin And Progress Of The American Rebellion A Tory View :...

Protip:

1: every government tells the story of its founding as the story of heroes casting off the yoke of oppression.

2: every government then claims to be the legitimate descendants of the founding government.

In the case of the USA neither is true.

[laminustacitus]

Without arguing against the contemporary (i.e. post Civil War) understanding of the Constitution, it is impossible to argue that the income tax is unconsitutiona.

[eliotn]

@nazgulnarsil

Protip:

1: every government tells the story of its founding as the story of heroes casting off the yoke of oppression.

2: every government then claims to be the legitimate descendants of the founding government.

In the case of the USA neither is true.

That is awesome, that is true, that is what I used to believe (at least for the US). Why did I trust the government in the first place? I would not use the word “every”, though, are you sure this has been true for every government sofar?