F4Me,
would you mind if I started a new thread and asked for a poll on how many people wathc the videos you post?
as a side question to the poll, peoples oponions why your videos are / are not useful?
Go ahead. It won’t change anything. You can be a sheep all you want and keep denying the fact that civilization is not sustainable and will collapse.
You can be a sheep all you want and keep denying the fact that civilization is not sustainable and will collapse.
Once again you are either missing the point, not reading anything, or simply not bothering to adress anything I say. What you stated has nothing to do with what I said. I am critiquing your method and presentation of ideas. Something that seems well echoed in the community. I am saying your method of presenting the way you see the facts is at best fruitless and at worst counterproductive.
K, first of all you’re forgetting that H/G is NOT sustainable. H/G devastates the natural supply of resources. This means that H/G societies need to keep expanding their territory to find fresh soil and game. Soon enough there will be no good soil or game left, so no food will be replenished and we’ll HAVE to default to an ag way of living.
A single field in my neighborhood has been farmed to an extent that can feed at least 20 families for more than 500 years now. You know what it hasn’t been able to sustain? H/G and foraging.
H/G peaked 10000+ years ago. Any attempt to return to it will crash and burn because of the tragedy of the commons, tribal warfare and a ton of other factors.
But let’s say just for the sake of argument that he were able to make a convincing case that agriculture was leading to the imminent collapse of civilization. Does it really then follow that we should abandon agriculture altogether and just live in the woods hunting and gathering all day for eternity?
I mean we’re not talking about reforms, we’re not talking about making improvements, we’re talking about completely scrapping a system which makes it possible for billions of people to seek alternative employment in whichever field best suits them and which helps produce tons of food for people to eat in favor of living in the woods. We’re talking about living lives far removed from one another, living in self sufficient poverty eating berries or whatever. How is this the best possible alternative?
I think I’d rather die in the collapse of civilization. To me all the awesome things that civilization and agriculture provide for me make whatever price I might have to pay worth it. It’s not living per se that’s important to me, it’s living comfortably and I can’t imagine a life of self sufficiency being anywhere near as comfortable and awesome as the life I currently lead. I wouldn’t have all this wonderful stuff at my disposal that I don’t have to produce myself. I’d be toiling all day everyday trying to catch fish or find berries that weren’t poisonous. Fuck that man.
It’s not all about surviving the collapse. It’s about adhering to the NAP. Ag and civ are inherently aggressive. Violence in H/G societies was way less than it is in civs and that’s a fact most anthropologists support. H/Gs do not kill each other the way civilized people do.
So you would get rid of civilization and agriculture just to lessen the amount of aggression in the world? You would pay that price?
I have the skills to survive w/o resorting to ag, civ or tech. I’ve lived in the woods as a gatherer for days on end. It’s not hard once you know what your doing.
Well ok then.
Saturday, May 12, 2012 22:57 EDT
.post #149
[url=Is Civilization Evil? - #307 by Freedom4Me73986]
By definition, perhaps? One is either self-sufficient or interdependent.
If you haven’t already, I strongly urge you to read The Ultimate Resource.
In the video A Tale Of Two Revolutions (posted by John James here), narrator Bill Whittle makes this statement:
It seems to me that this is essentially what your belief is.
See also Controversial identification of Rousseau with the noble savage.
No it’s not. I can do whatever I want in my agricultural property, including trading with the owner of the other agricultural property. It’s all voluntary, and there is no aggression anywhere.
This post is specifically for Freedom4Me.
The internet can be a wonderful place, where you start out looking for one thing, and through a few random clicks, end up in a neat place you never intended to be! I was looking into Clarence Darrow, a search brought me to this site, and on the side of the page about Clarence Darrow was a link that said, “Is Civilization Evil?” My answer was, “Of course!”, but what is this link about?" And here I am!
Yes, Freedom4Me, civilization is evil. No qualifiers, no buts–it can’t be anything but evil. And I have skimmed some of your posts and I think you really do get it. That’s very rare to find someone who has put together so many pieces of the puzzle as you appear to have done.
Have you read Ted Kaczynski’s (the media-dubbed “unabomber”) “Industrial Society and Its Future”? It does such a wonderful job of explaining what you are talking about and in such plain and easy-to-grasp language. It’s online for free. In fact, it’s been several years since I’ve read it. I should probably go read it again…
I’m afraid that a forum like this isn’t the best place to convert anyone. I am a bit surprised at the some of your opponents’ responses. I thought this was a website where mainstream and government propaganda are at least questioned. The many responders on here seem to be far more defenders of the status quo than questioners of it.
After 20 years of studying and analyzing just what is real and what is not, I find that very few people can wrap their heads around what you are talking about. You have to undo a lot of brainwashing and acquire a lot of knowledge of a lot of different subjects to be able to see the big picture. Government propaganda machine has lots of money, lots of power, and lots of conspirators and it’s VERY VERY difficult to undo all of that.
And I can understand where they are coming from. I graduated high school at 18 as the most docile, brainwashed person ever. I believed everything I was told and obeyed all orders perfectly. There was definitely a time where I would have called you crazy, too. “We can’t possibly live without government!! Without police!! Without money!! Without farming!! What kind of lunatic are you?!?” I would have said all those things to you at one point in my life because I simply had no information that would allow me to make sense of it. Then, piece by piece, the information presented itself to me (books, documentaries, personal observation) that lead me to understand that not only can we live without all those aforementioned things, but that they are the root causes of suffering and evil in the world.
I don’t have time to write anymore, but, Freedom4Me, you have a supporter that gets it. You may have some details wrong or out of context, but that’s okay. You are absolutely on the right path. And if you haven’t read Ted Kaczynski’s writing I mentioned above, you will be glad you made it a priority to read it!
May you two have a wonderful life in the woods together eating berries.
LOL
Have you read Ted Kaczynski’s (the media-dubbed “unabomber”) “Industrial Society and Its Future”? It does such a wonderful job of explaining what you are talking about and in such plain and easy-to-grasp language. It’s online for free. In fact, it’s been several years since I’ve read it. I should probably go read it again…
I have but I’m not a fan. Kaczynski’s religion is anti-tech. My religion is the NAP. I don’t hate civ for the sake of hating civ. I hate civ b/c it’s aggressive and the source of almost all violence today. I also believe there will be a civ collapse in the near future, probably a massive die-off after peak oil and the bottoming out of ag, so I want to be ready. I’m a survivalist and a “doomer” if u want to call it that. ppl don’t understand how civ is collectivist and violent. Theyd rather have their easy life but dont realize the violence behind it OR the fact that its not sustainable.
I am a bit surprised at the some of your opponents’ responses. I thought this was a website where mainstream and government propaganda are at least questioned. The many responders on here seem to be far more defenders of the status quo than questioners of it.
I came to this forum to discuss austrian economics and how the gov is constantly lying to us and trying to control us. Tech is the instrument the state uses. I know most people here are anti-state but none of them are anti-tech or anti-civ.
One question F4M: What do you think about owning land property?