Is induvidual ownership of land total?

By owning land as an induvidual do you truly possess everything about that land? If you do then consider the implications.

Lets say that some Turkish fellow someplace in present day Germany decides he would prefer to subject himsel to the Turkish state rather than the German state. So this fellow proclaims his house and backyard are hencforth subject to laws and authorities of Turkey. What possible objection can be put forward to his doing this? He bought this property fair and square after all.

Or lets say a whole street block inhabited by I don`t know lets say recent immigrants from Germany in Croatian litoral decide they will instead of being subject to Croatia form a mini-state of their own and proclaim their block an independent state? (Lets say they have never heard of Anarchism.) What objection can be raised to this? Even if they moved into Croatia and bought the property with the sole intention of proclaiming this mini-state. How can you object to this while recognising totality of induvidual ownership? Or maybe you have no desire to object to such scenario and would greet it as just another seccession in the right decentralising direction?

It would seem to me there are two paralel concepts of land owenrship alive among humans. The induvidual and even older non-induvidual ownership concept. We do speak of “Russian land”, “Chechen land”, “Scottish land” and so on. We do speak of a “land grab” when a nation-state annexes a certain are of another nation-state, without induvidual ownership of the land changing hands at all. It seems to me, there is a concept very much alive among men that lets say a German can buy a stretch of land in the middle of Russia from a Russian guy and this gives him all the rights to the land as an induvidual, but that there is a certain undersanding present that this land remains “Russian land” despite this and that therefore the German fellow does not neccesarily have all the rights (namely the right to induvidual self-determination that would enable him to seceede from Russia or even hook up his land with Germany proper) that he would rightfuly have if he lived on the ancestral land of his people (lets say in Alsace).

If you read National Self-Determination by Rothbard it would seem even he recognised something similar to this. Notice this passage of his:
But more troubling is, say, the current situation in Estonia and Latvia, where the Soviets deliberately tried to swamp and destroy native culture and ethnic nationalism by shipping in a large number of Russians after World War II to work in the factories. In Latvia, the Russian minority is only slightly under 50 percent. Here, I believe the recency of this migration and its political nature tip the scales in favor of maintaining native nationalism. In fact, libertarians believe that everyone has the natural right to self-ownership and ownership of property, but that there is no such thing as a natural “right” to vote. Here, it would make sense not to allow Russians to vote in Latvia and Estonia, to treat them as guests or immigrants of indefinite duration, but not with the voting privileges of citizenship.

While I do not agree with his condonance of this policy of Estonia and Latvia towards Russians, I find it telling he in effect did not oppose different political status implimented for Russians based on the fact they were immigrants and therefore living on Estonian and Latvian rather than on Russian land.

What do you think about this issue? It is hard to deny there exists a concept like this among humans. Perhaps less so in America since you are all immigrants there with a very feeble common identity?

(And please note saying there is no such thing as “national land” because there is no such thing as a “nation” is not much of an argument. Yes nation is ultimatley an “imagined” concept. In practice it exists only because people are convinced it exists and should exist, but the same is at the end of the day true of induvidual ownership of land itself. There is such ownership only because we are conviced there should be such ownership and that there rightfuly is such ownership.)

I don’t see the issue with a Turkish mini-state in Germany. When he deals with Germans outside his property, he will be subject to German law. If a German deals with him on his property, it will be according to Turkish law. Or they can decide to have some other 3rd party arbitrate.

In Neal Stephenson’s Snow Crash, there are all sorts of mini-gated communities like this. In fact, they are franchise models. lol

Land that exists autonomously is different from land that exists from a road. When we lived an agrarian lifestyle, we made our living from the land. Our production came from the land we owned. Today we live an urban lifestyle, we make our living from the road. We may own a parcel of land within a larger estate whose roads we use, but this is not a whole economic good. Should the road be removed, our parcel of land would immediately become worthless to us and we would have to find a new residence accessible from the roads we live from.

If the Turkish fellow had invited Republic of Turkey to annex his property, then they can now teleport Turkish officials to oversee the law of the state and a few army personell to protect the exclave border. Why not? If he addjoins his property to Turkey out of his own free will then the state of Turkey is not doing anything immoral in this area provided we buy the totality of induvidual ownership? Would in that case the many Germans that would be upset by Turkish government authority in the middle of what is German ancestral land in reality have no legitimate grievance?

Or what if is not a mini-state? What if 3 million German retirees buy addjoining pieces of land in Turkey? Should they be allowed to seceede (provided they would go on to form some sort of state and would not live in absolute anarchy)? Somehow I do not think so. I would hate to think that makes me a bad libertarian.

You know, most of Turkey used to be Greek.

That is why I am using Germans, not Greeks.

And anyways the population of Anatolia today is largely descendand from the pre-Turkish conquest population of Anatolia. Modern day Turks are Caucasian but originaly Turkic peoples were Turanid.

So who cares if it stops being Turkish?

I believe that the smallest functional size anarchy could shrink to is city states just because of the nature of utilities and roads. realistically though real life anarchy would probably just result in what we have now: a few sovereign nuclear states with every other state being client to them.

Just because a city has to be a single business, that does not mean it has to be a state. There are many businesses that do business in multiple states today.