Is Islam more libertarian/anarchistic than Christianity and the west?

Economics Political Theory
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41

Yes I have read the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran (although this was the english version and was reduced to around 4000 pages).

And blasphemy is illegal in my own country Ireland, and is punishable by fine and/or imprisonment. What’s more this law was only introduced a year or so ago. And being from a Catholic family and Christian country, I know well what Christians believe. But are people who don’t follow the bible word for word actually Christian. After all, it does state that it is the word of God and it is what the religion is based on. So can you really just pick and chose the pieces that you like.

‘‘It’s incredible; in three sentences, you’ve managed to reduce 4,000+ years of detailed argumentation about theology and textual criticism and interpretation to a couple of outlandish, generalized statements’’.

Well let me put it this way. Faith means believing in something for which their is no evidence. Well I don’t believe in things for which their is no evidence because I am not an idiot.

But this is all a bit off topic. I did not mean to offend anyone with my original comment; I was mearly stating that either religion can have pieces picked out to make it some liberating or oppressive, but when it comes down to the nub of it, when either are practiced devoutly the are both very oppressive.

42

I challenge you to provide one occasion of God murdering anyone. Perhaps you were using a hyperbolic term to refer to the Creator of the universe terminating the earthly existence of one of His creations…

strictly speaking the austrian school promotes value-free economic analysis. You may find that this analysis suggests to you that individual liberty is the best way to achieve your values. You might personally value individual liberty and rely on some austrian philosophy to argue for that value. But you cannot project these values onto the austrian school.

lucifer wished to violate God’s property rights, which is obviously impossible and deserving of some penalty. But God did and does allow satan to rule parts of earth (for the time being) so what is your point? Does the austrian school lead you to believe that no one deserves to go to hell?

cry me a river. God invented liberty, property rights, the non-aggression principle, and condescended to live the life of a human being (complete with being tortured to death) in order to free humankind from sin. God dictates that we may enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness so I wonder what part of all of this you have a problem with.

God is ontologically superior to humans so I would like to see the passage in Human Action that applies to the Divine.

there is likely a causal relationship between the former (as cause) and the latter (as effect).

43

So I guess anyone who uses logic or math is an idiot in your book?

44

Just a few examples of God’s numerous murders. Unless, you believe that murdering someone is ok because you are only terminating their Earthly existence.

1) Capital Punishment Crimes:

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

2) God’s Murders for Stupid Reasons:

Kill Brats

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

God Kills the Curious

And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and’ fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

3) Murdering Children

Kill Sons of Sinners

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

‘‘strictly speaking the austrian school promotes value-free economic analysis’’

Yes, this is correct. I appologise, I was making the assumption that the person I was arguing with meant individual liberty. Which they most likely did.

‘‘lucifer wished to violate God’s property rights, which is obviously impossible and deserving of some penalty’’

I guess I don’t buy your premise. Is owning yourself violating some elses property rights? I would claim that God was violating Lucifer’s property rights.

‘‘Does the austrian school lead you to believe that no one deserves to go to hell?’’

Well I don’t believe anybody no matter how heinous their crime deserves to be tortured for all eternity. This is independent of the Austrian School.

‘‘cry me a river. God invented liberty, property rights, the non-aggression principle, and condescended to live the life of a human being (complete with being tortured to death) in order to free humankind from sin. God dictates that we may enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness so I wonder what part of all of this you have a problem with’’.

If God own us and we must live under his strict principals or be sentenced to an eternity in Hell, I struggle to see how he invented liberty. And he had people torture himself to death in order to save us from being killed by himself? This makes absolutely no sense. And God does not dictate that we may enjoy life and liberty, he enforces strict rules to prevent enjoyment of life or achievement of liberty because he will kill us and send us to hell if we break these rules.

‘‘God is ontologically superior to humans so I would like to see the passage in Human Action that applies to the Divine’’.

Page 69 and 70 of Human Action. And the ontological argument for the existence of God is a pure crap and a cop out.

P.S. How do you quote. I always click the button but it only ever worked once. I’m obviously missing something.

45

‘‘So I guess anyone who uses logic or math is an idiot in your book?’’.

Is that not the opposite of what I said. Logic and math are self evident and have been proven to exist.

46

Funny, I thought they were axiomatic.

47

Yeah, but you completely disregarded his biblical quotations.

48

What’s the difference?

49

As for your examples, I must have missed the part where God killed someone wrongly? What moral standard do you propose to apply to the Divine?

Well, God does own the angels. But regardless, God owns heaven and so casting lucifer out was also within our concept of property rights. Furthermore, as your concept of ethics deals with interhuman relations, and both God and angels are ontologically different, you cannot simply apply your notions of interhuman ethics to a relationship between God and His subordinates. So when God punishes lucifer for lucifer’s insubordination, you must explain what standard you use to judge this as wrong.

what is your evidence for this?

If what? Who told you that failure to live under God’s strict principles necessitates an eternity in hell? I thought you said you read the new testament…

No kidding. And its relevance to the topic escapes me.

so you dont enjoy liberty in your daily life? You live in fear of divine punishment every second and this modifies your behavior somehow? I doubt that, I think you do enjoy liberty and subjective freedom of action (trying to avoid a deterministic sideline here) and you arent worried about God striking you dead the instant you deviate from an absolutely moral existence. The fact that life and liberty exist and are enjoyed is evidence that God dictates that we enjoy life and liberty, because God’s dictates always come true without exception.

50

Young people are so impatient.

51

Axioms are assumed, not demonstrated. You cannot provide evidence for an axiom.

52

Young people are so impatient.

My bad, all I saw was that you had skipped his quotations and instead answered another point.

53

Its ok dude, I saw his later post before his earlier post. And I probably would have dashed off that reply first anyway, because back-and-forth one-liners read better in chronological order. I was just razzing you because I saw your age in another thread.

54

‘‘As for your examples, I must have missed the part where God killed someone wrongly? What moral standard do you propose to apply to the Divine?’’.

Are you serious? Maybe killing people for being gay, or maybe killing children for mocking a bald man. I propose that the Devine use the same moral standards we do or at least their own standards.

‘‘Well, God does own the angels. But regardless, God owns heaven and so casting lucifer out was also within our concept of property rights’’

So do you believe that someone can have a higher claim on another individuals life without voluntary exchange?

‘’ Furthermore, as your concept of ethics deals with interhuman relations, and both God and angels are ontologically different, you cannot simply apply your notions of interhuman ethics to a relationship between God and His subordinates’'.

Does this mean you think that no moral standards apply to God and he may do as he likes?

‘‘what is your evidence for this?’’

I don’t understand your question.

‘‘Who told you that failure to live under God’s strict principles necessitates an eternity in hell?’’.

Is the Bible not the word of God? So God told me this.

‘‘No kidding. And its relevance to the topic escapes me.’’

Well you brought it up.

‘‘so you dont enjoy liberty in your daily life? You live in fear of divine punishment every second and this modifies your behavior somehow? I doubt that, I think you do enjoy liberty and subjective freedom of action (trying to avoid a deterministic sideline here) and you arent worried about God striking you dead the instant you deviate from an absolutely moral existence. The fact that life and liberty exist and are enjoyed is evidence that God dictates that we enjoy life and liberty, because God’s dictates always come true without exception.’’.

You seem to have misunderstood me. God prevents people who believe in him from enjoying ‘‘liberty’’, but liberty even for infidels is not to be enjoyed because it does not exist.

55

‘‘Axioms are assumed, not demonstrated. You cannot provide evidence for an axiom.’’

I’ve always had a difficulty with this. Are axioms not self evident certain truths? If they are, do they not prove their very own existence?

56

“maybe”? You dont sound very confident. Why does a human being (who is ontologically subordinate to God) have a superior claim on earthly life than God, who created life, and gave that human being earthly life according to His own dictates and purposes, and is by definition ontologically supreme? are you a vegan? And where, in your opinion, do morals come from?

Not “someone.” God necessarily possesses property rights over all of creation, by definition.

morals originate with God, and whatever morals apply to the Divine Being are necessarily products of the Divine Consciousness.

you said you are not some kind of idiot who believes things without evidence, so pony up. What is your evidence?

whatever nonsense you had posted bears little or no resemblance to my arguments. Jesus did not die on the cross in order to save humanity from “being killed” or whatever. He sacificed himself in order to save mankind from slavery to sin.

how? And how?

57

Axioms are not necessarily self-evident. Just the big four. And you can even find dissent about that, so I hesitate to call anything “self-evident.” if they were self-evident I wouldnt have had to spend an entire week demonstrating their utility to a nihilist on these boards a few weeks ago.

58

‘’“maybe”? You dont sound very confident’’

Let’s not be flippant.

‘‘Why does a human being (who is ontologically subordinate to God) have a superior claim on earthly life than God, who created life, and gave that human being earthly life according to His own dictates and purposes, and is by definition ontologically supreme? are you a vegan? And where, in your opinion, do morals come from?’’

This is like saying I own my children. No matter how old they are, and that I can use them as slaves or torture them. I don’t agree with this. The ontological argument is bullshit. It’s like saying I have a claim over someone who is intelectually inferior to me. No I am not a vegan, and I think you make a good point there. In my opinion morals are subjective, and are a construct of the human mind.

‘‘morals originate with God, and whatever morals apply to the Divine Being are necessarily products of the Divine Consciousness’’

Does this mean that God has different morals. After all no two different people have identical morals.

‘‘you said you are not some kind of idiot who believes things without evidence, so pony up. What is your evidence?’’

I don’t know how I can prove this. All I can tell you is that I don’t believe in God or any spiritual stuff.

‘‘Jesus did not die on the cross in order to save humanity from “being killed” or whatever. He sacificed himself in order to save mankind from slavery to sin’’

Well what would sin have resulted in. God murdering you and sending people to hell.

‘‘how? And how?’’

If you don’t follow his rules you’re screwed. And we are coerced by society.

But again I really feel like we have strayed off topic. I was simply stating how both Islam and Christianity are oppressive.

59

If axioms are assumptions does that not, at least partially, discredit any deductions based on them?

60

I don’t like to interpret the koran and then decree that my interpretation is correct; the koran is far to ambiguous and inarticulate for that. But basically, you cannot reconcile a theocratic central power with libertarianism.