Is the state so bad?

The state does not rightfully own all land (and it does not give its creditors that land if it defaults, which almost every modern states done at least once) . If it did, there would indeed be nothing wrong with that mutual company we call state. If the state wants to legitimize itself, it must enforce its will on public land alone, and leave private land outside of its scope. Thus, in one fell swoop, it would become a just institution.

Of course, I do not believe it would survive for more than a year, and it would fragment into more rationally sized holdings. But the long-run equilibrium could be of guys or homeowners associations owning blocks and enforcing their rules on them. Feudalism, in short.

I love Steven Pinker but, on this one subject, I strongly disagree with him. This is just a regurgitation of what Hoppe terms the Hobbesian Myth (from The Myth of National Defense):

Among the most popular and consequential beliefs of our age is the belief in collective security. Nothing less significant than the legitimacy of the modern state rests on this belief.

I will demonstrate that the idea of collective security is a myth that provides no justification for the modern state, and that all security is and must be private. First, I will present a two-step reconstruction of the myth of collective security, and at each step I will raise a few theoretical concerns. The myth of collective security can also be called the Hobbesian myth. Thomas Hobbes, and countless political philosophers and economists after him, argued that in the state of nature, men would constantly be at each others’ throats. Homo homini lupus est. Put in modern jargon, in the state of nature, a permanent “underproduction” of security would prevail. Each individual, left to his own devices and provisions, would spend “too little” on his own defense, resulting in permanent interpersonal warfare. The solution to this presumably intolerable situation, according to Hobbes and his followers, is the establishment of a state. In order to institute peaceful cooperation among themselves, two individuals, A and B, require a third independent party, S, as ultimate judge and peacemaker. However, this third party, S, is not just another individual, and the good provided by S, that of security, is not just another “private” good. Rather, S is a sovereign and has as such two unique powers. On the one hand, S can insist that his subjects, A and B, not seek protection from anyone but him; that is, S is a compulsory territorial monopolist of protection. On the other hand, S can determine unilaterally how much A and B must spend on their own security; that is, S has the power to impose taxes in order to provide security “collectively.”

There is little use in quarreling over whether or not man is as bad and wolf-like as Hobbes supposes, except to note that Hobbes’s thesis obviously cannot mean that man is driven only and exclusively by aggressive instincts. If this were the case, mankind would have died out long ago. The fact that he did not demonstrates that man also possesses reason and is capable of constraining his natural impulses. The quarrel is only with the Hobbesian solution. Given man’s nature as a rational animal, is the proposed solution to the problem of insecurity an improvement? Can the institution of a state reduce aggressive behavior and promote peaceful cooperation, and thus provide for better private security and protection? The difficulties with Hobbes’s argument are obvious. For one, regardless of how bad men are, S— whether king, dictator, or elected president—is still one of them. Man’s nature is not transformed upon becoming S. Yet how can there be better protection for A and B, if S must tax them in order to provide it? Is there not a contradiction within the very construction of S as an expropriating property protector? In fact, is this not exactly what is also—and more appropriately— referred to as a protection racket? To be sure, S will make peace between A and B, but only so that he himself can rob both of them more profitably. Surely S is better protected, but the more he is protected, the less A and B are protected from attacks by S. Collective security, it would seem, is not better than private security. Rather, it is the private security of the state, S, achieved through the expropriation, i.e., the economic disarmament, of its subjects. Further, statists from Thomas Hobbes to James Buchanan have argued that a protective state, S, would come about as the result of some sort of “constitutional” contract. Yet who in his right mind would agree to a contract that allowed one’s protector to determine unilaterally—and irrevocably— the sum that the protected must pay for his protection? The fact is no one ever has!

The Hobbesian myth just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Why should people repeatedly, predictably fail to adequately provide for the defense of their property?

Pinker is also hinting at the possibility that an unending cycle of feuds would result in the absence of a single Leviathan with the power to overwhelm any party in society. Leaving aside the fact that it is not clear that a Leviathan State actually does prevent feuding (are there not gang wars?) and leaving aside the fact that States themselves feud (World War I, anyone?) it’s not clear to me how it is that the possibility of feuding is such a great evil that any other evil required to prevent it is justified. The famous feud between the Hatfields and McCoys was fairly local in its consequences. The modern superstate, on the other hand, is indisputably responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions of individuals in the period of a century.

Also, a Pax Romana is not inconsistent with the idea that the State is a tyrannical evil. Sure, there might be “law and order” on the streets but how does that matter if we’re living in a virtual slave society? That the system is so entrenched that nobody dare challenge it (peace) is not the same thing as saying that the system “works” or is “good”.

Clayton -

Pinker addresses that point.

I know. I’ve watched the video more than once. As I said, I love Pinker but on this point - that absence of a Leviathan results in increased bloodshed - he’s dead wrong. I don’t even dispute his numbers, though recent research suggests the deadliness of living in some tribes is a bit exaggerated. Life expectancy has dramatically increased, despite all the wars of the 20th century, this is indisputable. But that’s not my point. My point is about alternatives “comparative institutional analysis” as you call it. On the one hand, we have a system which in its failure mode results in feuds (private production of dispute-resolution) and on the other hand we have a system in which feuds in the ordinary sense generally don’t occur but which results in the systematic expropriation of an ever-increasing portion of each and every individual’s wealth. This wealth is then turned to aggressive uses (war) for reasons Hoppe has explained (decision-makers don’t feel the costs of their own decisions).

Clayton -

First of all nothing in the article (admittedly I skimmed through the thing if I am missing something vital please tell me and I’ll read through whatever sections are necessary) defeats any of the ethical or economic arguments which I stated. The major problem which is proposed is that from chaos caused by small “anarchist” states which leads to fighting and bloodshed. However this is an argument not for large states or even states as we know them today, but rather suitably armed “night watchmen” states with no other role other than defending the people within their borders.

As for the idea that evidence smashes my argument the fact is that no where in that article is he addressing the kind of “anarchist” societies which anyone here would like to see, he is referencing areas in which everyone is indeed attempting to form a state or in which people are not looking to what we might call the true “anarchist” alternatives. He references gangs and knight communites which are really nothing more than small states vying for control, not free defense organizations attempting to compete for customers or educated populations trying to maintain their autonomy. Of course if the vast majority believe in states and they are militant about this then of course they will fight over this. Do you truly believe that if society believed in anarchism that one attempting to form a state would not lead to large revolutions and fighting?

The cases where libertarians might actually claim there was a true state of “their” anarchism under somewhat favorable conditions these places tended towards peace, not to chaos and bloodshed. Furthermore you are pointing to a state of affairs utterly different than the one that we have now. For the most part people in the “civilized” parts of the world are at least somewhat friendly and peaceful, and this is not because of the fact that there are guns pointed at them by a state, rather this is because they are indeed becoming more and more civilized.

And what do you mean caused by “big states”? Are you saying that the governments of world war I and II were not “large enough”? (If so, those tiny states which caused it are still there you know) That the U.S civil war was caused because the U.S wasn’t large enough? That the millions who died during the cold war were an outcome of the governments of the world being too small? Sure if every nation on earth were huge it’d be harder to pull that crap, but today according to your own data (the validity of the data itself I am not contesting in the slightest) homicide rates are going down and the overall size of nations since the Cold War has not increased. Also the huge slaughters in China and the Soviet Union occurred in, obviously, large nations, so empirically there is no specific correlation between large states and low death rates. Your cited article even sites other more likely causes.

So even if you want to be empirical about it I don’t see how you can reach your stated conclusion. If i am misunderstanding you please forgive me, if I should read more of the article then tell me which section I should read (please don’t say all of it unless you have to) and I will read the section.

I suppose a larger point is lurking here: statelessness has existed, but was more violent than life under the world’s largest government.

If the absence of violence were the sole end of society, then I suppose the ideal society would be a supermax-style lockdown of all human beings on the planet. Without any possibility of interpersonal violence, the world would be maximally violence-free.

Clayton -

Having been aware of that statistic for many years, this is the first time I’ve seen any attribution of the violence estimates to anything other than integration by division of labour. Aside from that, the assessment is not relevantly all-inclusive, as explained in the two kidnappers scenario. Ye olde seen vs. unseen.

@ Clayton

Strawman

@ Strangeloop

Please define large. Do you mean geographically? Population wise? In terms of economic control, social control, or overall control?

Statelessness has also existed in conditions far more peaceful than a lot of states, and also I would consider the largest period of statism in western Europe in terms of overall control to be World War II. This was more deadly than just about any anarchist society. You also fail to address the fact that stateless societies the likes of which are advocated by the people here are inherently different than the ones that you are examining in several key ways.

Also, strangeloop, have you ever heard of the Post Hoc fallacy? That might add a lot to the discussion.

I suppose a larger point is lurking here: statelessness has existed, but was more violent than life under the world’s largest government.

A police state employing Precrime would be very “peaceful” too.

BTW, what is he basing his assumptions on? Hoppe basically argues the exact opposite point in DTGTF with loads of sources to back his argument on the matter. Pinker’s comments on the state seem quite amateurish, as if he’s given absolutely no thought to what he’s saying. Then again, Hoppe doesn’t equate statelessness to lawlessness and so he doesn’t compare the modern state to failed states etc. but to past states. Of course, even with the modern state’s gargantuan death toll, we should be happy it’s made the world a little “safer”…

True, but, as I discuss in my sig post, that is not an argument for keeping the state alive any longer. People back than where totally devoid of ambition, making the rise of the state inevitable (and perhaps even beneficial).

Nothing but humans acting – using means toward subjectively valued ends – produces the outcomes we all see out our windows today. The (non-zero) amount of coercion humans choose to accept from others and the (non-zero) amount of coercion they choose to relinquish onto others produces the reality in which we all live today. The reality is (and always has been) anarchy. When things change, then they will be different. They can only be made different by changing the ends that humans value subjectively.

Caley McKibbin-

Very good point. Economic cooperation is probably the real explanation, not a parasitic state. In fact, I heard a talk by Pinker where he mentioned this and when he made the comment he was directing it at Noam Chomsky. If I’m not mistaken he was actually referring to capitalism rather than anything else. He also mentioned how he doubted people wanted to live in a totally planned economy because they wouldn’t want to live in a 8x10 cell.

I think the “real explanation” isn’t reducible to black-and-white options: either the market or the state. The synthesis of both is “probably the real explanation”: individuals producing material well-being and psychic satisfaction within the context of relatively free markets, all accompanying a government that has become increasingly responsive to more voices (e.g., in an agrarian society, little regulation was needed to correct market wrongdoing, while an industrialized nation of far-flung exchanges demands more oversight). Of course, we are left with flawed institutions all around, but meliorism should be a value guiding us.

For me at least, the lack of anarcho-capitalist institutions materializing (either from history or from current ungoverned regions) seems to indicate some sort of public goods problem handicapping law-and-order emerging spontaneously. If want the markets we have, we might be stuck with government.

Tell me, have you ever heard the examples of Medevil Ireland and Iceland?

Hmmmm..genocide, war, mass starvation, slowing down or halting progress, abusing it’s population, stealing money, not allowing people to be free, all of this for centuries mind you.

NAH DISREGARD THE ABOVE, THE STATE IS GREAT!

Strangeloop-

Maybe we do need more oversight, but it can be provided on the market. We don’t want the markets we have since they are hampered and over regulated.