Jefferson's vision - accurate?

Miscellaneous History
1

From the REA 2007 CLEP review course for “History of the United States I: Early Colonizations to 1877”:

Thomas Jefferson and his Republican followers envisioned … a nation of independant farmers, living under a central government that exercised a minimum of control … and served merely to protect the indiviual liberties… . This agrarian paradice would be free from the industrial smoke and urban blight…"

Is this, particuarly the bit about industry, accurate? I’m reading A.J. Nock’s Jefferson at the moment, but any other tips would be appreciated.

2

Yes. He was against tariffs, subsidies, and other methods that Hamiltonians wanted to use to force America to industrialize.

3

Interesting, but is it fair to ascribe to him a vision of an “agrarian paradise” ?

4

in my opinion its fair.

5

Industrial organization has a sociopolitical impact that indepedent farming does not. An independent farmer is a captain of his own ship and will be motivated towards gain and freedom, and will defend that life politically. An employee of a capitalist is just a cog in a machine. If you give that cog political power, he will want to transform all of society into a machine/cog framework.

That’s the reason why you had to be a property owner to participate in politics.

6

So, Jefferson was a slave holder and disliked industry ? He was quite original was he not…?

You sounds as if industrialization is something that gov’t forces upon people but actually [real] industrialization can only be achieved through laissez-faire. What Hamilton wanted was to favor some friends, not to ‘industrialize’ America.

Nonsense. Farming is the most backward form of production. And these particular farmers were slave drivers.

Wow. You sound quite marxist today…

7

Ya know he did dislike chattel slavery in theory. So your sarcasm is unwarranted because he’s only a hypocrite in action but not a hypocrite in theory.

Kevin Carson would disagree.

There is at minimum a kernel of truth in the whole “captain of his own ship,” thing, but on the other hand I do tend to agree with Mencken’s assessment of farmers. Perhaps there are various sorts of farmers. Surely there are ass-backwards clay eating scum farmers, and govteat sucking corn-brained farmers, but I suspect that across time and space there exist some farmers who are somewhat more sophisticated, perhaps even to some degree independent minded… the type of people one might describe as decent.

But to be clear, these “particular farmers,” you mention weren’t always slave drivers, they were the middle class yeoman, not the wealthy planters.

8

That’s Carson’s problem…

Perhaps. My point remains, I think. Being a farmer doesn’t necessarily entail being libertarian minded. And a good deal of farmers were and are just the opposite.

For instance, in 19th century England it was farmers who supported tariffs and privileges while people like Cobden and Bright from industrial Manchester fought against the corn laws…

9

Yet it wasn’t the industrial proletariat that fought the corn laws, it was the industrialists.

10

Are you sure ? It’s obvious that Cobden and Bright had ‘popular’ support.

At any rate, it’s clear that the farmers were not ‘libertarian minded’ at all. They would have people starve instead of giving up their privileges.

11

I was surprised to read that Jefferson, in writing about the British disrupting his (not so productive) farms thought that were the excuse of taking his slaves to free them, then they would be justified. But they simply took them into their camps, gave them pox, and sent them back to die.

Also, Nock describes his many inventions and his resistance to monopoly of all sorts. I’m not interested in farmers and libertarians here, I’m interested in jefferson.

12

Do you mean in general, or especially within Jefferson’s time period? Either way, I agree. For example, the Grange…

13

I didn’t know about the Grange, thanks for mentioning them. So, more people who lobbied for state favors =] …

Ah, the irony…http://www.nationalgrange.org/about/history.html

Major objectives of the National Grange support stewardship of America’s natural resources; promotion of world-wide free trade; a combination of local and federal support for rural education, medical, communications, and road systems; non-partisan political participation; assurance of safe and properly labeled food products; organization of cooperatives and other economic services to support rural Americans; and elimination of direct government farm programs so as to assure a competitive and efficient farm system.

The National Grange supports the passage of progressive legislation that will benefit U.S. agriculture, rural America, and the nation in general.

14

Yes, it appears from a few quotes in the AJ Nock Book that he was for what he called the “Producers” maintaining their say in govt. Nock stops quoting and says that in Jefferson’s mind “Those who actually applied labour and capital to natural resources for the production of wealth, had no voice in government.”

Whether or not the word capital is Jefferson’s word has huge implications on the interpretation of whether to Jefferson Class was Rulers vs the Ruled, or Rich vs Poor.

15

Please stop reading somebody’s book on Jefferson, avail yourself to Jefferson’s own letters.
http://www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/jefferson/jefind.html
They tell a lot more about the man’s views.

Over the years Jefferson changed his views on agriculture, industry, free-trade
“While we have land to labor then, let us never wish to see our citizens occupied at a workbench, or twirling a distaff. Carpenters, masons, smiths, are wanting in husbandry; but, for the general operations of manufacture, let our workshops remain in Europe” --T.J. in Notes on the state of Virginia

“We have experienced what we did not then believe, that there exist both profligacy and power enough to exclude us from the field of interchange with other nations : that to be independent for the comforts of life we must fabricate them ourselves. We must now place the manufacturer by the side of the agriculturist.” --T.J. to Benjamin Austin, January 9, 1816.
http://www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/jefferson/austin.html

“I consider the war then as entirely justifiable on our part, although I am still sensible it is a deplorable misfortune to us. It has arrested the course of the most remarkable tide of prosperity any nation ever experienced, and has closed such prospects of future improvement as were never before in the view of any people. Farewell all hopes of extinguishing public debt ! farewell all visions of applying surpluses of revenue to the improvements of peace rather than the ravages of war. Our enemy has indeed the consolation of Satan on removing our first parents from Paradise : from a peaceable and agricultural nation, he makes us a military and manufacturing one.” --T.J. to William Short, November 28, 1814; when the reality of the war of 1812 set in.
http://www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/jefferson/1814b.html

Thomas Jefferson on natural aristocracy, letter to John Adams, October 28, 1813.
“For I agree with you that there is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents. Formerly, bodily powers gave place among the aristoi. But since the invention of gunpowder has armed the weak as well as the strong with missile death, bodily strength, like beauty, good humor, politeness and other accomplishments, has become but an auxiliary ground of distinction. There is also an artificial aristocracy, founded on wealth and birth, without either virtue or talents; for with these it would belong to the first class. The natural aristocracy I consider as the most precious gift of nature, for the instruction, the trusts, and government of society. And indeed, it would have been inconsistent in creation to have formed man for the social state, and not to have provided virtue and wisdom enough to manage the concerns of the society. May we not even say, that that form of government is the best, which provides the most effectually for a pure selection of these natural aristoi into the offices of government ? The artificial aristocracy is a mischievous ingredient in government, and provision should be made to prevent its ascendency.”
http://www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/jefferson/1813b.html