Thanks John. I’ll admit to not having listened to the podcast yet.
But would Wenzel really be okay with a person expressing “his” idea after he’s already done so? If so, then I don’t see how his support of intellectual property still has any leg to stand on.
I think the bigger issue was expressed in the comments of one of his two-dozen or so blog posts on this debacle…
What if someone else comes up with the same formula entirely by themselves? Do they have to prove it? Did you ever have to prove you “invented” it? Can they give it away to anyone they want?
I have no problem with independent discovery. do you?
You have a problem with enforcement based on distinguishing the two.
Just like his whole “you can recreate IP with contracts” nonsense, Wenzel obviously hasn’t taken 2 seconds to think beyond his policy to it’s actual implications. The guy is just an old idiot who happens to be lucky enough to have agreed with Austrian economics a long time ago. This whole thing has honestly made me much less likely to visit his site lately.
It’s kind of weird, as I knew he was always in favor of IP, but really after hearing the way he defended his position (or I should say, the way he responded when given the opportunity to defend his position), I just have a really bad taste in my mouth for anything he’s associated with. It was one thing when he kept his mouth shut and just kept saying “just wait for my book”…but now that he opened his trap and removed all doubt about him being a fool, it’s really tainted all of his other work for me.
I guess it’s kind of a subconscious thing, where my brain can’t let go of how retarded his arguments were, and just how poor his entire performance was…and on some level I feel like “wow, if he’s that clueless, and that incapable of not only making an argument, but even just hearing the points raised by someone else…what else is he off in left field on?”
And the truth about his epic “speech at the Fed” was just shit icing on the shit cake. The guy is such a joke.
The unbreakable union of free republics, for one.
I don’t know why I can’t stop listening to this podcast. I’m a newb to the Mises forums but IP is my favorite “controversy” in libertarianism and I feel compelled to reply.
On the first listen, I thought Wenzel’s opening remarks successfully portrayed Kinsella as a pompous jerk . Kinsella seemed to want to avoid talking about it, which didn’t help. I didn’t know the backstory, that’s just what I thought during the first listen. Kinsella lost his cool, but eventually got it back as the content and momentum of his arguments eventually steamrolled right over Wenzel’s gradually unravelling demeanor and nonexistent position. I wished it had been more civil (on the first listen).
Subsequent listens are eye opening. It’s clear Wenzel’s strategy was smear Kinsella’s reputation by cherry picking what Wenzel perceives to be semantic ambiguities in writings Kinsella has authored over the last 13 years. He preaches from his unable-to-read-between-the-lines interpretation of Rothbard, groping for some gotcha moment that never comes. He seemed completely disinterested in putting forth his own concept of IP. Kinsella has slighted him in the past and the purpose of this podcast is revenge. I like the part when he carelessly asks Kinsella to cover for him while he searches his notes for something to read verbatim into the microphone. Ha! Gotcha! lol
Kinsella’s goal was to advance the understanding of anti-IP. With of course a highly structured, rock-solid argument that he knows well enough to recite in his sleep. They just aren’t in the same league. I noticed several moments where Kinsella was caught off guard by Wenzel’s apparent lack of understanding yet gives him the benefit of the doubt and goes on. Eventually he gives up as Wenzel resorts to shouting. So it was two and a half hours of harrowing efforts to get through Wenzel’s thick skull. I really like that he stuck it out to the end. You know which one was watching the clock.
It was hella entertaining but I feel disappointed. I really enjoy Wenzel’s show, Morning with Rothbard, EPJ posts, etc. I listened to his recent Mises speech on the USSR at least 3 times. But he is hopelessly wrong about IP and this podcast makes him look like an ass. But Kinsella scored a win for anti-IP so it’s a net gain. GG
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Hope to see you around more.
Wow. Yeah. He’s actually going there…
And now, “Wenzel” (whatever his real name is) goes after the dean of Austro-libertarianism. Ah, poor Bob.
DrewNull, I think you’re right on.
I’ve never heard of Wenzel before this, and seeing the postive compliments he gets from people on other topics gives me mixed feelings, after this one sided neutering. On one hand, I understand it’d be illogical for me to dismiss all of Bob’s work and commentary based on this “debate” rather than the merit of the commentary itself. But on the other hand, I have to wonder how someone so utterly clueless can be worth referencing for anything. I’d rather follow someone without this IP-monkey inconsistency on their backs, all other things being equal.
“Wow. Yeah. He’s actually going there…”
LOL… I wonder what it was… that Hoppe called Kinsella ‘his friend’, or whether because apparently Hoppe has taken a blasphemous position?
The comical and deluded appeal to Hoppe in support of his cause.. absolutely annihilated.
Bob… you were wrong about that. Ever stop to think about what else you’re wrong about?
Ansury, I would like to know how you gauge whether a good is rivalrous or not.
Since me breathing air from the atmosphere doesn’t restrict your ability to breathe air, is that a good enough reason to believe air is not rivalrous and hence nobody can claim ownership over it? Or is rivalry better defined when it is gauged on the basis of a person’s ‘psychological desire’ to hold personal ownership over a resource? For instance, I may consider all air in the atmosphere as my personal property, so anybody else breathing air from the atmosphere affects my psychological desire to own all air in the atmosphere. Remember, in this view rivalry is not defined in a physical sense, but rather in a psychological sense.
Another example I can think of is land. Lets say I own all the land in the world. Now I can never imagine of using all the land in the world under my ownership. All my actual physical needs would be fulfilled by a small portion of the total land on earth. Now, does that mean land is not a rivalrous good? I don’t think so. Land is still a rivalrous good in the psychological sense, because my psychological desire is to own infinite land, and when gauged on that basis, land is a rivalrous good (and anybody who uses any piece of land on earth is fiddling with my property, in the psychological sense, although I may never physically make use of the particular piece of land in question).
I think the psychological (or ‘subjective’) view makes better sense. I would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
Hmm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivalry_(economics)
I think if you’d read the economic definition of the word, you wouldn’t have to ask silly questions like this.
Seriously, just read the definition.
Are you and Wenzel just using a different Internet than the rest of the world? Where your search engines just don’t turn up any definitions of economic “rivalrousness”?
Is it me or has Wenzel been getting increasingly shrill and desperate in the last few days in regards to this subject? I don’t know if it’s just me reading it into his stuff, but visiting the EPJ has become almost trite at this point.
Nope, you’re right on the money. I used to visit the site every day. But as I said, ever since that podcast, it actually feels weird going there. And not just because of his incompetence, but also the petty nature of what seems to be more and more of his posts. The guy seems to be going down.
That podcast may have been his shark.
I keep listening to the debate when I’m working. It provides the necessary entertainment and learning to keep me in front of my computer working with an occasional laugh. And I usually come on this site just to 1) order books, 2) read, 3) repeat. But Wenzel’s meltdown has brought me out of the wilderness.
Completely agree with you, JJ. I used to have EPJ’s feed in my browser, and read almost every individual post throughout the day.
But now… I’m just staying away. I check his home page once a day now, see a bunch of insecure/arrogant posts about IP, some news I can get from LRC, and some financial news I can get almost anywhere else.
It only took about a week for his entire site to degenerate to a handful of trolls (Wenzel & Rossini included), and the people who try to educate them – even though they all seem to believe, along with Wenzel, that learning is theft.
Anyway, JJ, thanks for considering my comment “the best so far” from the debate.
EDIT: also wondering if this will be Wenzel’s shark. Just checked his Alexa stats, and -14.01% reach over the last 7 days. Not long enough to be a trend yet, but I’ll be interested to see if his site loses some of its popularity among libertarians.
As you note, I’m pretty sure it already has. As I mentioned, the unlibertarian reality of IP is becoming more and more apparent to libertarians. I wouldn’t be surprised if a majority are at least skeptical already. Even outside the libertarian community, people are getting it. The Internet and digital age has moved the world into an era in which it is getting harder and harder not to see the reality of ideas and patterns as not ownable property. Again, just look around… (Falkvinge.net; Torrentfreak.com; Legal Scholars: Thumbs Down on Patent and Copyright; The Origins of Libertarian IP Abolitionism; The Death Throes of Pro-IP Libertarianism)
I myself sent a couple of videos to Kinsella illustrating the growing reach of IP skepticism, which he posted…
LearnLiberty: Can Artists Make Money Without Copyrights? (Video)
Copyright Math and the $8 Billion iPod
Wenzel has had to keep doubling down, and he’s just been digging his grave deeper and deeper. And his logical fallacies and painful lack of any positive argument whatsoever are bad enough…but you throw in his pettiness and barrage of 12-year-old-butthurt blog posts, and it’s easy to see why his traffic would be going down. The guy is undoubtedly losing credibility with libertarians with virtually every IP post he makes. (And of course, libertarians likely make up better than 90% of his readership.)
And as noted in this thread, the shrilly petty tone of his Kinsella/Tucker attacks is leaking and drowning out the rest of his blog. He obviously has real self esteem issues, and of course, ego is never a good look on anybody. That’s actually a really great way to lose followers.
But even without his childish behavior, his intellectual ineptitude would be enough to turn off his audience. Libertarians tend to be some of the more active minded and considered thinkers of all, and I find they tend to be more intellectually honest as well. (I personally think this is a side effect of having the morally correct philosophy and the scientifically correct economic understanding.) They therefore don’t care much for (and have an easier time recognizing) poor arguments and abject nonsense. This is largely what we’ve been seeing all month in the comments throughout the libertarian Internet sphere in response to the podcast.
As I said in commentary elsewhere, Wenzel was wise to keep his mouth shut on his position and just keep shoving it off on his unpublished book that never appeared. By the time word of the debate came around, he was already too invested…both in his position as well as the debate itself…and he couldn’t back down on either one (ego issues, remember.) And ever since, he’s been his own worst enemy. You’ll find he has maybe 2 or 3 ardent supporters defending him at length in literally every one of his blog posts against the onslaught of criticism. (And I wouldn’t be surprised if he or Chris Rossini was one of them.) And of course, that’s just the criticism we see…every single comment that gets submitted has to be manually approved. So we have literally no idea how much more is out there, lost in cyberspace. But of course we can get at least some sense of it just based on the sheer amount of it elsewhere.
I think it’s safe to say Wenzel has put his goose on the fryer, and has absolutely no intention of even turning down the heat. I guarantee that codger will take his IP nonsense to his grave (which probably isn’t far off, by the way.)
Senility sure is a bitch.
Rest in peace EconomicPolicyJournal. June 1, 2003 - April 1, 2013
Rivalry isn’t psychological or “only existing in people’s minds”, it’s physical reality. Wikipedia explains it pretty well I think:
A rival (subtractable) good is a good whose consumption by one consumer prevents simultaneous consumption by other consumers.[2] Put differently, a good is considered non-rival (non-subtractable) if, for any level of production, the cost of providing it to a marginal (additional) individual is zero.
also
Goods that are non-rival are goods that can be enjoyed simultaneously by an unlimited number of consumers.
Defined any other way, the basis for the need to have private property would probably collapse completely (as it does with IP). This is a fundamental principle libertarian ideas are built upon, and it’s a disgrace that Bob had no clue about how this works. For me this makes him unqualified in his current role (or what’s left of it), sadly.
Carried out to the logical conclusion, even air or land would run out eventually (although I suppose you could say those are “less” rivalrous currently). An idea, or a design, or any pattern in nature cannot “run out”. You can’t fight someone else over something that both of you know, it makes no sense. It would be like fighting to take someone’s apple in a world where the supply of apples is infinite. But you can compete for the profits gained when employing ideas or patterns - that’s what Wenzel is really arguing for the “protection” of, as if profit was property. i.e. Protection against competition, i.e. private monopolies.
So I guess apparently, to Wenzel, profit = property (but only for IP!)…it’s hard to think of anything more nonsensical than that.
Has anyone spammed that Wikipedia rivalry link on Wenzel’s blog yet? Seriously, if he has even a single brain cell firing correctly (which I have doubts), he should be able to figure this out after reading that. With all the Googling for quotes to read he was doing you’d think he’d have the sense to look that one up. FFS, why can’t he just admit he was wrong and move on?
This is a really important point. From my own experiences I have found this to be true. I am kind of a firebrand in RL–but am making a conscious effort to take a softer, less incindiary tone–and of all the things I say that my family, friends, and coworkers object to, my stance on IP is not one of them. Which is amazing to me because IP is one of those things that I always took for granted myself. But rather than a no I usually get, “I’ve never really thought about it before”, exactly where I was prior to reading Boldrin & Levine’s book (thank you Jeffrey Tucker!). The leftists I talk to, of course, agree for all the wrong reasons. But it’s encouraging to see the wheels spinning in the eyes of a conservative or Republican. That’s where the IP battle needs to be won, imo.
Like I said, ego. Remember this is the guy who promoted the shit out his 3-man lunch one day as some epic truth-to-power stick it to the man speech at the Fed.
Yes, RIP Economic Policy Journal. No one swung the hammer of Rothbard at Krugman harder than Wenzel. But now I feel that Wenzel doesn’t like Krugman just because Krugman “doesn’t understand Rothbard,” not because one or the other is right or wrong on any given issue. Maybe Wenzel can save face by shutting down EPJ and opening RothbardianDogmatismJournal or something.
I’ve followed EPJ for a few years now, and always ignored his IP stuff and promises of a libertarian, pro-IP book. When he started his show, and I saw how overbearing he was to his guests, I lost a little confidence in him. His performance on the Peter Schiff show was uncontrolled, and his rant against Ann Coulter for not appearing on his show seemed a little too personal. I bet his ego was missing being able to quote Rothbard at Coulter and post a “Coulter Crushed!!!” blog entry.
The Fed lunch speech story seemed a little “thin,” for lack of a better term. He never mentions how many people were present when he gave the speech. He gives an indication of a Q&A session, where “one economist” (ambiguous, but he seems to be indicating one economist at a time, and multiple total) plays his Austrian economics sparring partner. Why would they invite him to speak? Hadn’t they heard how he treats guests on his show? No surprise the whole story is falling apart now.
I saw on his blog that he’s now trying to sell the Drudge Formula for $550, and threatening to sue for negligence anyone who pays for the formula but has it stolen from them. I see how IP would work in his world now.
It’s hard to tell whether he’s ignorant or dishonest about his whole scarcity-super abundant understanding. I’ll chalk it up to dishonesty for a paycheck by Rossini, who seemed the clearer thinker and who I had a higher opinion of than Wenzel to begin with. Here’s a post from May 2009 where he discusses sorting out the issue of using/discovering the wheel in court.
I don’t think Wenzel is a statist on this issue. I think he legitimately thinks he can convince the world to recognize that he has a property right in the income potentially or actually generated by any thought he has, and recognize that he can enforce that property right with any means at his disposal (No Trespassing signs, Hell’s Angels, or lawsuits, for instance). And according to him, this would be a libertarian world.
indeed.
(I authored this before luc2posse’s latest post)
More Wenzel insanity:
During the Wenzel-Kinsella debate, I revealed I had a formula for getting my links posted on the Drudge Report.
I am now making the formula available for $550. The formula is included in a short two page report. It reveals the types of posts that Drudge is likely to pick up from an unknown blogger. The better your skill at writing copy that matches the formula, the more likely links to your post will show up on Drudge.
One can’t be sure what exactly he is looking to do with this, but I’m sure it’s a combination of everything you could think of…a way to make some money, a way to allegedly “prove” is “IP through contract” concept, and a way to continue his “destwoying of stefwan”.
But here’s where it gets fun…
Obviously the first thing on people’s minds is all the normal problems with trying to create IP through libertarian contract law…
April 12, 2013 at 10:38 AM
If you sell more than one of these, and then it’s discovered that others are using it, how are you even going to figure out who leaked it?
April 12, 2013 at 11:01 AM
Am I liable if a third party breaks into my computer and reads the formula?
April 12, 2013 at 11:31 AM
Going to the legth you have to make something infanitly reproducible into artificially scarce does not dissolve the fact that this formula can be replicated for everyone on Earth.
If you get everyone to agree to keep your formula to themselves then great, contracts are contracts. But your formula is not truly scarce as physical resources are, it is artifically restricted by your contractual efforts. Once this secret is let out beyond contracts, your only option is to begin to agress against the persons who have no contract with you in a vain attempt to plug the gaping hole in your theory of IP.
Somewhat surprisingly, Wenzel is actually answering these questions…
Everytime someone mentions something about the almost impossibility of actually proving who leaked the formula, Wenzel comes back with his mysterious “I have my ways. Try it.”
Someone did mention that Wenzel could simply slightly alter the formula for each buyer, but even then, several problems arise:
1) It sounds like the “formula” is nothing more than a general outline of recommendations on how to write a juicy blog post, and perhaps a few instructions on various off-page SEO tasks to perform. I really don’t see how someone couldn’t just reorganize the process into a write-up of all the same generic information, and simply eliminate any traceable aspects.
2) Even supposing one just wished to release the exact PDF Wenzel sends him…how the hell Wenzel expects to be able to identify (let alone find) the culprit, is beyond me. The old fart is certainly not a technology genius, and even if one was, there’s virtually no way to positively ID someone in this arrangement if he doesn’t want to be identified…
You honestly could hide yourself every step of the way. You just simply use Tor to set up Paypal account with fake information. Transfer money into the account through making a sale of something or through a transfer from another account, and then make the purchase with the dummy account.
Wenzel has no way of enforcing his contract.
The only hurdle is that his price point is $550…and sometimes Paypal restricts accounts to $500 worth of activity before requiring bank account verification. (I wonder if this is a coincidence, or if Wenzel is actually knowledgeable enough to be aware of this, and that is actually what dictated his price point. I doubt it though, as he agreed to sell his (apparently lessor-value) traffic formula for $100.)
But really, if one were determined, or had a little bit of knowledge/skill, he would know how to get around this issue. (And there are multiple ways).
3) Suppose someone leaks the exact file Wenzel sends, and he uses his personal Paypal account, literally giving Wenzel his name and contact info. Is Wenzel really going to expend the time and resources trying to go after this person? It would be incredibly time consuming and expensive, particularly if the person was a foreigner, (although apparently Wenzel is just rolling in cash and has all the money in the world to throw away on petty bullshit like half-million dollar wagers). But even supposing this is the case (which I would find odd, considering how busy Wenzel always claims to be), it leads to another problem that at least one commenter raised immediately…
4) What if this person has nothing of value to seize? What if he is “an unemployed basement dweller in his mom’s house and he has no assets.”
I’m so tempted to get this formula just to release it and shut Wenzel up. Get it put up on TPB, and a few forums, and then post links to all of them in response to his “What’s the Formula Stephan?” post.
If The Point didn’t publish the name and address of the recipient of the funds, I’d actually crowd source the cost, just to shove it in his face even more. (Can you imagine the reaction upon having a Point campaign dedicated to collecting pledges for the sole purpose of purchasing and releasing his precioius formula?)
Technically you could still do it, but the hoops need to jump through to protect yourself would be too many, I think. You can never tell how far he’d be willing to push his lawsuit. I wouldn’t be surprised if the guy would bankrupt himself carrying that case as far as he could, just to be able to blog about getting his retribution. You never want to underestimate the tenacity of someone with a lot of time and extremely low self esteem.
If anyone would want to donate more privately, through bitcoin, or directly to the dummy Paypal account…I’d even more strongly consider being the mole.