Because it should never have been treated as property. It is not the product of human labor. You can no more own land than you own a radio frequency. The only difference between the two is that you can secure land by force.
I don’t see how that answers my question. Why does the homestead principle say that I can exclude people from unused land?
It doesn’t. Perhaps you could read up on it?
Read a bit down here. Sieben discussed his term “use-rights”. It may be what you’re looking for.
From Thomas Paine’s Agrarian Justice:
ever driven through montana?
there’ll be land for a few generations.
Yes, I support use-rights to land not property rights. Most everyone else here seems to support the idea that land is property. I have asked for anyone to make the case that a person has the right to exclude others from unused, undeveloped land. But I haven’t see an answer.
What do you do when a man owns a parcel of land that he wishes to cultivate into his own private park? To you the land appears idle? To him it’s his entire dream?
Also it sounds like your assignign certain values to property that isn’t necessary. Property is simply a concept that deals with
We cannot exempt land from economics simply because we have an egalitarian problem over whats fair or un-fair regarding land distribution. Land is still scarce, it must be occupied, and it must be occupied over some limited period of time in order to satisfy man.
IE, your still going to use some form rule system whos governing concept revolves around property. You may change it’s name to “use-rights” but it’s still just another form of property.
Also earlier I asked you to explain to me why man is free only if he has his own personal parcel of land?
No one here has claimed that a person has the right to exclude others from unused, undeveloped land. You originally asked how people could survive if all land was private and owned. Where is this unused, undeveloped land coming from? If a piece of land is sitting unused, undeveloped and unowned then you have every right to homestead it to your heart’s content (something you can’t currently do under government laws).
Land is a good/property because it is scarce. There are many things that aren’t the product of human labor that are considered goods. To paraphrase from a lecture I heard on this site, air becomes a good if you’re scuba diving because it is scarce under the water, is this wrong? This lecture covers homesteading I believe: http://mises.org/media/5231. Homesteading solves the problem of unused, undeveloped land because you can only lay claim to land and resources that you have homesteaded (utilized). Correct me if I’m wrong on any of this, I haven’t read indepth on the subject.
There’s really not a terrible amount of difference between the present and your proposed future. Many people today do not own land, they provide the demand for apartments, condos, duplexes, rental houses, ect. Land is also not owned forever or, as filc said, perpetually, so there will always be opportunities to purchase land. Entrepreneurs will see the demand of the non-land owners for places to live and leisure so no one should really be left at the mercy of anyone else.
Filc, I answered your question. A man doesn’t have to have his own personal land to be free. He just needs access to some land. This doesn’t have to be to the exclusion of others.
You are ignoring my question. What gives that man the right to claim that land if it is idle?
Maggie, so if you buy a lot, and leave it undeveloped, you support my right to homestead it?
Ok then. Answer my other question. Define idle? re-read my above question regarding the ownership of personal park space.
“I am just making the case that freedom is dependent on the availability of land. If all land is claimed, you are forced to work for other people.”
Most people don’t work for themselves, through cooperation we are able to extend the process of production and create better goods, faster.
“…I question the concept of land ownership itself. I think one needs access to land to be free. That does not necessitate ownership.”
So if you currently live in an apartment you’re not free? The very fact that you’re arguing for this shows that there would be a demand for communal land which could be provided by private companies looking to fill the need in your supposed future.
“This thread is about the freedom to exist. If all land is private, you have no right to stand on other people’s property. What right does a man have to exclude people from unused land? Where does this right come from?”
You change the question halfway through this paragraph. First, you say that all land is private and that there’s nowhere to go. Then, you say that there’s unused land. Is the freedom of the landowners secondary to the freedom of the non-landowners?
“…I am asking why land is regarded as property.”
Because it is scarce. If there was more than enough land for every person on the planet then it would probably be free, as air currently is under most conditions.
“Because it should never have been treated as property. It is not the product of human labor. You can no more own land than you own a radio frequency.”
I’m repeating myself, but for the sake of thoroughness, something doesn’t have to be the product of human labor to be a good.
“A man doesn’t have to have his own personal land to be free. He just needs access to some land. This doesn’t have to be to the exclusion of others.”
So you’re saying that everyone is entitled to some land in order to be free. He doesn’t have to pay for this land? How is this communal land doled out? Why can’t this person work like everyone else toward purchasing his own piece of land?
“You are ignoring my question. What gives that man the right to claim that land if it is idle?”
You keep changing your question. “Idle” is subjective; one man may have a small house in the middle of a huge lot, but is this wasted space idle? Perhaps he gets great pleasure out of having empty space around his home and we have no way of calculating who would get the most enjoyment out of a piece of land.
“Maggie, so if you buy a lot, and leave it undeveloped, you support my right to homestead it?”
No, I specifically said “unowned” (I even italicized it!). Like I said above, perhaps I get great pleasure out of having wide tracts of land sitting unused. Although this scenario is pretty unlikely in a future where land is scarcer, people are probably going to be using most of any land they own.
From what I can gather, your real question is why is anyone allowed to own land at all, correct? You seem to have some romantic notions regarding nature and ownership, but in reality, land is scarce and thus there is a demand for it. If you move to the moon, no one will probably stop you from homesteading a farm or whatever, but here on earth land is scarce and valuable.
I actually don’t know if homesteading and private property are at odds with each other, maybe someone with more expertise can clarify.
Maggie you did say unowned, but not in your first point.
That promoted my question. Maybe clarification of the first point to include “unowned” is in order.
Working for other is fine, if it is by choice.
You can be free in an apartment, as long as it is by choice.
You conflate ownership with use.
Ok, so scarcity makes land property? Thank you for answering when others refused. What makes a claim to a specific piece of land legitimate?
If goods don’t have to be the product of human labor, how can we claim possession of these goods?
Everyone is entitled to use land. At the very minimum, you are entitled to the space you occupy. Again you conflate ownership and use.
Idle is indeed subjective, but that can be determined by arbitration or otherwise.
If all land is owned, I believe they are at odds.
Please frame what everyone is entitled to in the terms of an infant. I want to be sure there is some consistency.
Is an infant entitled to land?
Is an infant entitled to survive?
Is an infant entitled to anything?
Is an infant entitled to own land? No
Is an infant entitled to use land? Yes. If an infant is not entitled to exist in some habitable space, then it is not entitled to life.
Is an infant entitled to survive? That is a loaded question. An infant is not entitled to food, but an infant is entitled to be left alone.
If a woman has a baby on your couch and then leaves, leaving the baby on your couch of course. Is the infant entitled to occupy the couch?
No, but it’s mother violated my right to exclusivity inside my home. The baby is entitled to the porch or the front yard or some other space that does not require exclusivity. And if I feel that I want to exercise my exclusivity right, I am free to place the child outside and send the mother the bill.
This home must not sit on land then since you feel you have some right to exclusivity. Where is this home located if not in Libertopia?
You have a right to exclusivity in your home. You built your home or bought it from someone who did. It is property.
You can have a right to exclusivity on any land improvements. For example if you operate a park and charge admission. You have the right to keep non-patrons out because you maintain the park. Same thing with a farm. You irrigate a farm, so you have exclusive right to farm that land as long as it is not abandoned.
If I am the first one to complete a fence around the United States I can charge admission?
If I breed livestock on 1000 acres of land can you come and build a house on that land because it is undeveloped?
Are horse drawn cart or recreational four wheeling trails a land improvment?
If I have to mow and maintain your yard because you are too lazy to do it are you going to bitch when I fence your home off from the land I maintain and trespass you entering or leaving your house?
What about taking an extended vacation? How long do I have to wait before I can move into your home once you leave it? Who gets to decide?
You can have a right to exclusivity on any land improvements.
Improvements doesn’t mean anything in any sort of objective sense. Improvements are purely subjective, and therefore not the basis of any objective rights. (not that I believe in objective rights or morals)
No, a fence is not park maintenance.
Yes you should be able to homestead on land that unimproved.
Yes roads/trails could be improvement.
No, not as long and there is an easement for me to enter and leave.
I don’t know how much time is required to be called abandonment. This is a question in our current society. Arbitration would have to determine what constitutes abandonment.
Then where does the right to exclusivity in your home come from? Or is that not a right?