Liberal Sociology, Social action, and the laissez faire school

Really? So in every dispute you have ever had, you threatened violence against the other party? I know I haven’t. For example, if a friend of mine is not coughing up his fair share of the bill at a restaurant, I do not threaten him with violence over the dispute. He either pays, or if he keeps this kind of behavior up, he will not remain my friend.

Arguing is cheaper than fighting. I do agree with that. But violence is not looming over absolutely every dispute.

No, it is not, as previously demonstrated. Perhaps there are places where resolutions reached through ADR are binding in a court of law, but what of it? What’s your point?

No. I’m pretty sure that you established a few posts above that Autolykos can single-handedly take down governments. I’d like to see you try and stop Autolykos against just you.

I think you’re confusing my position with something akin to moral nihilism or amoralism.

I have not said that you can’t make up your own values or that moral values in general are irrelevant.

Then I don’t think you’ve sufficiently distinguished (for my purposes) your position from moral nihilism and amoralism.

You haven’t said that explicitly, but your position is entirely descriptive - there’s no normativity to it whatsoever. So either we’re talking past each other or you’re amoral.

Every acting being has a morality, that is, has preferences and acts on those preferences. The ultimate end which lies behind every action is that end which is never a means to any other end - this ultimate end can be called satisfaction, happiness or pleasure. It must not be misunderstood that the ultimate end is a particular kind of pleasure (such as of eating delicious food). The correlation is formal - what we mean by satisfaction is that end which every acting being is always seeking. It is a tautology.

The problem of morality is reduced to a technical problem: what is the correct means to the attainment of one’s ultimate end (satisfaction)? Mises avoided discussing the ultimate end (there is one section where he mentions Epicurean ataraxia in passing but that’s as close as he gets) because he didn’t need it but praxeological theory is perfectly consistent with this form of analysis.

People confuse social order (norms) with morality. This is forgivable because, by far, the majority of the problems associated with attaining one’s satisfaction are social in nature. It’s an easy thing to build a shelter in order to get relief from the elements (satisfaction) - the branches of a tree will never retaliate against you. But it’s a lot more difficult to attain satisfaction by means of social relations - just think of parents, friends, spouses, employers, employees, bill-collectors, police, judges, Presidents, etc. These are all people and they are all imposing their will upon you and resisting the imposition of your will upon them. Unlike tree branches, they have a memory, they can connive and they retaliate or even aggress.

Just like there are right and wrong ways to build a shelter, there are right and wrong ways to interact with other human beings. The end in either case is always the same: my satisfaction. The majority of what people mean when they talk about “right and wrong” or “morality” is precisely this question of right and wrong ways to interact with other human beings. The key difference is that most discussion of morality leaves out the question to what end? The end is my satisfaction and rightness/wrongness of course of action is to be judged with respect to its suitability for bringing about my satisfaction. How should I treat others? In whatever way brings about my satisfaction.

And almost every thing in life which is a means to your ultimate end (satisfaction) is entangled with the social order. If you want to cook yourself a meal, you will need groceries, to get the groceries, you will need money, to get money you will need to sell something you have (perhaps your labor) and to sell something, you will need to find a buyer (human being, a social entity). Suddenly, just cooking yourself a simple meal involves people and is now a complicated matter of social interactions.

Some people might object that this moral principle is simple-minded and would justify murder if you’re someone who gets a kick out of killing, for example. But this objection (falsely) imagines that the only thing stopping people from going on murderous rampages is the will to do so. The fact is that people push back on us depending on how we behave (reciprocation, retaliation, etc.). They obstruct our choices (deadbolts, security guards) and impose costs on us (lawsuits, bill collectors) depeding on how we act. Of course, these are only the gross means by which people push and pull against one another, the most sublte and pervasive forms of push and pull are invisible: guilt, fear, love, shame, etc. The internal wiring in our brain permits us to impose intangible penalties on one another and it is these intangible penalties that are the warp and weave of the social order.

Clayton -

Yes. If not explicitly then implicitly.

What demonstration?

My point is that dispute resolution is done in the “shadow of the law.” The participants understand that violating the agreement can bring legal consequences.

I said that might makes relevant. What does might make relevant? It makes values relevant.

And might can come in many forms. Might can also be contested. Human might that is.

You are a sick person. There is no need to threaten people over a wide range of disputes. You must be easily upset if you need to threaten people whenever you disagree.

The one where I stated that I have been involved in a number of disputes where neither I nor the other party felt it necessary to threaten violence, implicitly or explicitly. I even gave an example of such a case.

Okay. So now you believe that it is possible for a person to take another’s property illegitimately (i.e. a thief who steals)?

^ I suggest you all stop feeding the troll.

Yes there is. Otherwise they don’t take me seriously. Which brings me to your “demonstration.”

You gave an example where you got walked all over like a doormat and then unfriended that person. I suppose that works in that context? You can’t just unfriend the US government (which is what we were talking about in the first place right?)

All I said was that the perception of illegitimacy was irrelevant without power backing it. Might makes relevant the claim of illegitimacy.

Then you forego any notion of legitimacy, which makes you amoral in my book.

He isn’t saying anything crazy, he is making a point on law / legal theory - which is a mainstream, obvious, and uncontroversial view the way I am reading bloom. Unfortunatley he ma be a 1 trick pony as he seems to be bringing the topic up in a limited manner (reading current extant US laws in a fairly literal way, and just focusing on that category) where it doesn’t belong - such as a thread dealing with sociology, etc; which may be the cause of the thread derailments

Are you amoral too, then, William?

No I just reject your notion of legitimacy.

You haven’t explained what - if any - notion of legitimacy you hold onto. And apparently you’re categorically refusing to do that, for reasons unknown (or maybe not so unknown). What other conclusion do you expect me to draw? If you actually come out and say that you’re equating the words “relevance” with “legitimacy”, then you are indeed a believer in “might makes right” - you just mask that belief by not using the word “relevant” instead of “right”. Same difference.

Look, I’m sorry for derailing this thread. I knew this would happen.

You have no understanding of logic whatsover. When I say “a wide range”, I mean “some”, not “all”. There exist disputes where people do not need to threaten violence. You have not disproved my statement. Instead, you make the claim that it is necessary to threaten violence for all disputes. I have provided a counterexample to this claim. Thus, I have disproved it. Period.

I could press charges. I could attack my friend. I could also let it go and not be friends with him anymore. It seems that you believe that it is never okay to just let things go. You are either a very angry person or a psychopath. Take your pick.

And no, we were not necessarily talking about the US government. You have on multiple occasions brought up the lone thief for examples. The discussion at hand was not only about governments but also about thieves.

The thief was just Autolykos’s analogy for the US government.

I don’t believe that you’re sorry one bit. As far as I’m concerned, you derailed the thread on purpose. My question to you is why.

While you’re at it, I’d also like an actual response to my last post.

It sounds to me like you already have an answer in mind to this question. Would you like to share it?

So what’s your view here? You didn’t answer my question though.

Okay, and why is that? Could you please elaborate?

With all due respect, are you being deliberately vague? If so, why?

You can’t spot his logical fallacies if he doesn’t say anything!

This I’d like to hear - pray tell, why do people accept the morall double-standard of the State?

And Autolykos, dude, what makes you think you deserve any more responses from me? You goad me into expanding on my original post, ignore everything I say. You’re a waste of time. If anyone’s trolling, it’s you.

So basically you wanted to see what kind of reaction you’d get?