But a “terrorist organization” is just a criminal organization. Are you saying that if, say, some guys are robbing a bank in downtown LA, and one of them opens fire on the cops who arrive to stop them, that the cops are justified in bringing in tanks and levelling the bank, customers and all, and then going on TV afterwards to say “oh, the guy who opened fire on us is responsible for all those innocent deaths. Don’t blame us!” Somehow I don’t think the public would quite go for that.
A terrorist organization is not just a criminal organization. Palestinian terrorists represent the interests of the majority of the Palestinian population. They have voted for them, they pay taxes to them, they emotionally support them, they send their kids to serve in their ranks. So in your example if the bank belonged to the same criminal organization, and the employes were supporters of this organization, then of course the police could level it.
Eugene, you haven’t addressed any of my points. Instead, you went on with more of your collectivist bullshit which basically states that all Palestinians are terrorists and Jew-haters - something which isn’t remotely true. You say you believe in the NAP, yet you’re advocating for the initiation of aggression.
As a side note, this is what every oppressor says before he’s overthrown:
“Punishing” innocent people just radicalizes them and acts as a great recruiting tool for the opposition.
Eugene, voting is NOT a coercive action. Only because Hamas was voted into power doesn’t justify the mass extermination of all Palestinians. Furthermore, even if we consider voting for Hamas a coercive action (when it clearly is not), then there still are other Palestinians who did NOT vote for Hamas, and thus deserve to be spared.
By your logic, all Americans should be exterminated because most Americans either voted for the Democrats or the Republicans the past few election cycles, and both parties have conspired in wars of aggression.
By your logic, ANYONE who votes should be executed, as every political party advocates for the initiation of aggression in some form (e.g. taxation, restrictions on voluntary transactions, war). And EVERYONE in a country where the majority of the population votes should be, therefore, exterminated.
I’ll just come out and say it: you sound like a NAZI.
So instead of having a trial, just kill them all? Sick.
Anyways, there is no such thing as a “defensive” war. Both sides ALWAYS claim the other side was the aggressor.
I do believe in NAP in exactly the same way as Murray Rothbard believes in NAP, but I completely object to the application of NAP in wars. Wars are another matter altogether. A war is not a civil society. There is no practical way to perform due process or to kill aggressors without collateral damage. When artillery fire is used to kill hundreds, you can’t go and search for evidence and invite suspects to court, that’s just ridiculous. You just fight the bastards. Its either you or them.
You can’t apply NAP to massive conflicts such as the WW2 or the Israeli-Arab wars. Nevertheless I do believe voting is participation in the aggression. This is not different than paying a hitman. Whether you vote in the market or in a democratic election doesn’t matter. Every citizen who voted for Hamas, voted for a charter which explicitly states that the main goal of Hamas is to destroy Israel and kill all Jews. Every citizen who voted for this organization had the intent to kill Jews, and provided the means to Hamas to do so with his tax money. Now I’m not saying all Palestinians should be exterminated, not even the majority who voted for Hamas. However I am not much worried about collateral damage since I know that most of the civilians who are killed by the collateral damage have supported Hamas and its murderous campaign with votes and with money.
You said taht punishing innocent people just radicalizes them. Well you don’t live in the middle east. I have to tell you that in my experience and in the experience of 80% of the Israelis the opposite is true. You have to project power, to beat the crap out of your enemies. Only then the enemy will respect you and fear you. We need that fear and respect to keep aggressors out of our lands. Why no one attacks China, Russia or the United States? Is it because they are nice or is it because they are feared? Weakness emboldens your enemies. This was true 2000 years ago when Roman empire was in power, and it is true now.
If you look at it from the Palestinian side- Israel is a terrorist state which seeks to completely subjugate or eliminate them, and unlike Hamas has the power to do so and comparing the death tolls themselves is enough to see the truth. You’re saying the palestinians started it, Israel just retaliates, this is just propaganda. Israel kills palestinians on a regular basis just for the hell of it. Even going as far as to use israeli warships to bomb a family picnic at a beach. Things aren’t as simple as you make it out to be. There are too many individual actors with their own reasons for what they do for us to group all Palestinian or Israeli actions together- even within Hamas and the Israeli military.
The people who voted for Hamas took the same approach you advocate- that weakness emboldens enemies, so pick the team that actually fights for its people instead of the pathetic group that preceded them that never got anything done in all the years they were in power. There aren’t many choices for the beggar in a prison. The excuse that Israel only wants to defend their lands and suddenly the evil palestinians showed up is laughably untrue by anyone who wants to look.
Which is ironic, since Israel took the lands in the first place.
Israel was the aggressor when it took the lands. Now it is the defender. It is good to be King.
I am glad you are omniscient and have such divine powers.
Anyway: Large number of Israelis are awesome people. Funny, easygoing, and nice. And they don’t deserve their loony defense hawk friends at home, who want to find new enemies for them. Just kick back at the beach and relax; what more would anyone want in Israel?
Obviously, we are all going to live forever, else we wouldn’t be worrying about potential terror threats and using pre-emptive attacks on them. Similar precautions we must take against lightning striking us or some invisible flesh eating virus suddenly getting breathed into our lungs.
Thank you for providing us with an opportunity to study an individual with a siege mentality.
I don’t want to start an Israeli-Palestinian debate, so let’s take virtual countries. There is a dispute over land. In the last decades the land belonged to country A. However country B wants to take the land from country A because citizens of country B believe the land is rightfully theirs. Citizens of country A claim the opposite.
The majority of citizens of country B vote for militaristic parties and fund them. The government of country B uses indiscriminate weapons against country A in order to create terror and harm as many civilians as possible. Country A retaliates with air strikes to kill the militants, but also harms civlians in the process. Yet no matter how much it retaliates, citizens of country B continue their campaign until all the land is caputred. What should country A do?
Open borders to Palestine Country B?
Yet no matter how much it retaliates, citizens of country B continue their campaign until all the land is caputred.
There’s your sign…
Opening the borders would work only in anarcho-capitalism, but Israel is a welfare state. Would you open your borders completely to Afghan people?
I always thought that the actual Japanese military high command refused surrender, while the civilian part of the Japanese government wanted to surrender. Also, absent from these discussions seems to the number of Japanese civilians that would have been killed in a land invasion.
Even after the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, didn’t military officers (lower ranking, I’ll admit) try attack the radio stations from which the surrender message was broadcast?
In a heartbeat. I would let them live in my house. Afghani food is fantastic.
Palestinian terrorism can not be that bad, if you are unwilling to incur a cost as small as this to get it to stop.
I LOLed.
Double the population of Israel with 6 million hostile people, a good portion of whom are radical fundamentalists? No, I definitely prefer suicide bombings. They still hate Jews, so inviting 6 million enemies into your territory is just suicide.
You changed your line of argument. First you could not ‘let them in’ because they would go on welfare. But now you can not ‘let them in’ because they hate Jews.