Libertarianism and racism: a critic by an activists

Thank you Esuric and Mike.I would to point out first that I believe in the libertarian stance against discrimination since I believe people should have the freedom to associate with whomever they choose so long as they don’t hurt anyone and the same goes with the view on property rights where I didn’t indicate that I agree with Rand on it. I however don’t think he shouldn’t pursue his campaign by talking about since it would not be a smart move politically as shown when his numbers dropped dramatically and he make the mistake of blindly saying racism doesn’t exists today in some shape or form.

Esuric I agree with most of what you said about capitalism and racist insitustutions and I remember the New York Times trying to link slavery and the free market together in an article a few months ago, but can you explain what you mean when you say “rapid decline in racism”?

Mike, to go back to my example again it would irrational to do this and stereotyping is the kind of “service” that leads to racist thought. Once you begin applying this to an individual you set the path towards doing it for an entire group.

Reading your first point one thing that I really agree on that often seems ignored is that you acknowledge that there is little one can do if society is mostly racist. And I understand that the libertarian argument doesn’t mean to imply that racism is okay since one can choose who to associate with. What I want to understand is why within the community is racism often downplayed.

Edit: I have to go soon, but I would like to know how one would go about addressing Tim Wise if they were ever put in a situation where they had to debate with him. Keeping in mind that he does research on this subject for a living.

How would you know who we have trouble convincing?

Because there are not a lot of minorities in the movement or even minorities who are conservative.

People who are freshly immigrated tend to stay out of the loop. But most of the libs I know in my area are not northern european, by far the majority north of Toronto.

That’s because the left offers hand outs to minorities and it’s totally natural for any human being to accept free benefits, especially when government provides a education that spends the entire month of February drilling into the heads of impressionable kids that black folks in particular are never-ending victims and thus deserved of entitlements. That’s pretty hard to fight against.

I feel what you’re saying, but I think maybe people are getting tripped up on the semantics of “irrational”. That’s a hard one. Because it’s a rational conclusion to come to that mankind is inherentally racist due to an impulse to gravitate toward those who appear to have closer genetic relatedness. But it’s irrational not to hire someone or even communicate with them simply because of their race, with no regard to their personal qualities. In fact, i think that we can all agree that racism is UNPRODUCTIVE. In fact, counter productive in many ways. Dialetics, Philosophy, Economics, Biology and the very evolution of Language itself all work upon the same organic principle of of competing traits. The Free Market of Ideas must have competition and hateful racial collectivism would end the competition of ideas.

i see more minorities in the movement now, but I live in Philadelphia and here I’m the minority. But you know what I mean. More black folks are getting into it because they’re often not going to reach out to the Republican Party (and for good reason I would like to add) yet wish to reject the entrapments of the Democrats and the left.

If you’re interested in recruiting, then take it from me: what works is front groups, and knowledge of demographics. I used to be a radical. I was an anarchist. Mostly an individualist, but it’s dominated by collectivists and people who are essentially communists and I’d be lying if I didn’t say that I was drawn in to a little of that in my youth. But what i did learn was that the left really, really knows how to organize. If you’d like to see more black folks or other minorities in the movement you have to know the demographics to look for.

First and foremost: Welfare Recipients and many Muslims are OUT. Forget it. Start with the world the way that it is. Form a bloc of people that are close to our ideas and they will guide the others through example. Remember, most revolutions are fought by about 5% of the population. Everyone else just sits back and waits to cheer for whoever wins. You need to recruit a few shining examples and I’ll tell you what to look for. You want conservatives? Church. Recruit SOCIAL conservatives. People who don’t go in for the gay agenda and that sort of thing. Throw around the term social conservative. Get more black folks to understand that it doesn’t meet Republican, just traditional family values and belief in private property and a strong military. When they are interested in a political philosophy that supports that, introduce them to libertarianism.

The other big demographic - and this is how I recruit black folks into the movement - Black Entrepeneurs. Self starts, businessmen and the self employed. Meetup.org or facebook can be a place to find folks like that. First you start throwing around ideas about taxation and Austrian economics. But you don’t hit them with everything because it turns them off. That would turn anyone off. But get them into Howard Bloom or Hayek, maybe Rothbard. Have them listen to a more sensational position on an issue from a libertarian perspective, then when THEY ask you tell them you are a libertarian, and a conservative. Because, ultimately people have to come to the movement on their own terms. It’s got to be about self discovery and self education. The best we can do is raise curiosity and to do that you gotta know your demographics.

Hey Bryan that was a really awesome post. Theres a YAL chapter on my campus though I dont know if i’ll join since the focus is just on Ron Paul, but through other means I will be actively trying to spread the idea around to other minorities on my campus. I initially got into it on my own by reading about some austrian ideas but when it came to racism I had to stop and think about it for a while. Racism is a very complex idea and the free market solution is just overly simple that it could turn off a lot of people. I think the first step in trying to get minorities in the movement is to admit that it’s a very complex issue instead of instantly trying to appeal to them with something so simple.

I occasionaly get asked why I would be a part of something that does not have my interests in mind I respond by telling that person that living in a free society is in my best interests. In regards to racism and discrimination I point out like some others have pointed out was that it was state sponsored but that doesn’t completely answer the question since people allowed for it to happen. Instead I then bring up the point that people naturally become more progressive in their social views as we saw in the 50s and 60s to where being racists began to be looked at as taboo as people rallied against it. This was in thanks to activists,media, and literature that illustrated the hardships that minorities faced. The market would play a role only in areas where their was a significant amount of blacks to send a message.

In a way the Rand Paul incident illustrates the point, even if it was inaccurate, about how has come to the point where it will be very critical and ostracize an individual if they believe or that person turns out to be hateful of another group. The Tea Party has been in the news recently for some of the comments they have been making that can be perceived as being racists. If society is critical of someone who is like that and chooses not associate with that person then that person loses the motivation to be that way.

Libertarians are not conservative.

I’d like to add, it helps to market the right kind of material to your target audience. For instance, Hoppe’s DTGTF has material in it written strongly for the purpose of converting conservatives to libertarianism by illustrating how many of their desired goals are counteracted by statism. Obviously the market cannot and will not fulfill all of them, but it helps to explain how e.g. the state destroys familial relations.

Libertarians will always be called racists and other nonsense for no other reason than the lack of substance to base criticism on. I’ve learned well enough through the years that communists have too little confidence in their own ideas to trust to honesty.

strong military? what does that have to do with libertarianism? Shouldn’t it be easier to recruit minorities to libertarian thinking using the anti-military argument. Wasn’t the percentage of blacks dying in Vietnam way higher than their percentage of the American population?

Libertarians are also more socially liberal than conservative. Yes, there are paleoconservative, religious types that don’t approve of drugs, gays, or whatever, but they are liberal enough to know not to want to get the government involved.

While this may be sometimes the case, quite usually the socalled prejudices are based on a history of experiences people may have had with members of that group.

Treating each one us an individual, without making use of rule of thumbs or benchmarking would become a quite wasteful process.

Considering possible crime statistics and common behavioural patterns, this may just be a case of someone being cautious.

“Quote by Bryan Christopher Sawyer wrote the following post at Thu, Jul 29 2010 10:35 PM:First and foremost: Welfare Recipients and many Muslims are OUT. Forget it.”

Muslims are out? You don’t even explain why(Welfare receipients I understand because you’re arguing against their aid). But my experience has been that Muslims are mainly in. Since we’re collectivizing, the majority are highly suspicious of all government activity in every shape and form. Start off talking about foreign policy and everything else is pretty easy.

Someone who’s gonna rob you is gonna follow you anyway. Especially since if they intend to rob you they’ll notice your fear when you cross the street. So either way you’re done for. But I think it has more to do with the clothes, I think if you cross the street when you see a black man walking down your path while he’s in a suit, is it really just erring on the side of caution in that situation? I mean I guess I can understand that happening in a white neighborhood since they’re not used to minorities. Over here, its the cops you gotta watch out for. Like everyone walking down the street is black so you get to really figure out if someone is up to no good or if they’re just some regular guy. Skin color is pretty useless you have to be more aware than that if you want to be cautious.(and no even clothes are not enough)

But when you only see blacks being crazy and “gangsta” on TV all day, its easier to make those associations.

The first libertarian I met was Muslim, as am myself. I see Muslim values working well with libertarian ones, especially if the US has targeted them (Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Muslim citizens, etc etc). That means can be more appealing, a lot of Muslims moved to the left after 9/11 because of discrimination, and the war. Libertarianism can appeal to ALL people, because in general all people deep down want peace, cooperation and freedom.

And what if the person who crosses the street to avoid African Americans is black?

I think it’s a little ironic that Muslims would more readily accept the beliefs of Mises. Not because it’s less compatible (as we should all know it’s not) but simply because it runs contrary to the US “conservatives” ala Rush.

Marko it doesn’t matter what color the person is and don’t see how thats relevant to the example.

^What does Rush have anything to do with it?

My friend, there were a lot of blacks that lived through Vietnam as well. In fact, more lived through it than died in it. But I don’t want to confuse the arguement. I’m not saying that black folks who believe in a strong military and are socially conservative ARE libertarians or exemplify all that is or should be libertarians. And take what I’m about to say into account with the comment I made about not trying to recruit Black Muslims.

This is what I want you to focus on: What are the groups that only need baby steps towards libertarianism? The conversation I was having is how to recruit minorities into the libertarian movement, and I’m pointing out the demographics that we should target, which are: People who believe in a strong military, social conservatives, entrepeneurs. All of these folks have a similar principle in their outlook = They believe they personally and the nation as a whole has the right to be left alone. This shows a value of personal property. I hope that I’m explaining myself in a way that can be understood.

People on the right wing, or libertarians, or even individualist anarchists sometimes get confused when they think about recruiting by trying to figure out what groups have members like them, but by other names. That’s not recruiting. That’s networking with people who already think like you. Yes, there are Muslims who are libertarians, and one such made a fascinating speech at Hoppe’s recent Property and Freedom Society shindig over in Turkey. It’s on Vimeo I think, if you care to look it up you may enjoy it as much as I did (I’m speaking here to the fellow that said they are a Muslim and a libertarian). BUT - to recruit into a political movement you identify target demographics.

See, the unsettling thing about this, the area of the psyche some of you may not want to go toward because you are fundamentally good and decent people, is that political recruiting has a sort of Mephistolean character to it. None of us like to think of that. But it’s true. You’re trying to entice someone. But when you start thinking like that, almost like you are decieving somebody, it can make you uncomfortable because none of us want to think that we’re “turning someone over to the dark side.” And of course we’re not. But when you recruit you have to be subtle at first. You actually have to bait people. I think that not having this out look is what holds us back from spreading out message. But these are tactics that I learned when I was on the far left, and they work no matter what the agenda is.

So I still maintain that we recruit black folks and other minorities that believe in a strong military (which does not have to be a concept diametrically opposed to libertarianism, the debate is really on what structure the military will have), is socially conservative - possibly Christian, and an entrepeneur.

Now, if you would like I’d be interested in discussing how and why these elements make someone a good canidate for recruitment into libertarianism. Let me know what you think.

I’m a conservative libertarian and so is Glenn Beck and Judge Napolitano. Conservative is our social out look. It’s how we run our household. It’s not about dicatating to others how to run theirs. Conservatives value family and don’t appreciate the government redefining what family is, and how it is structured. It simply.

I’m a libertarian. I don’t believe in the government telling people who can and can’t be married. I don’t think we need marriage licenses. I also would not want a son of mine to marry another man. So if he wanted to I would say “Son, I’m conservative and I disagree with what you are doing.” But that’s really where the buck stops, dude. I can’t tell people what to do. I just have a morality that I stick to.

I don’t think people should be alcoholics either. I take the same stance that Glenn Beck says he does on the issue. If you are my friend and it’s clear that your drinking is out of control, I’m going to be by your side saying “Look, I’m here for you if you want to talk. I’m afraid, and I think you are destroying yourself.” I would do the same if they were on any of the other drugs I believe they have the right to take. Because I’m a conservative I don’t believe that it’s a good or moral thing to abuse yourself in that way. And I have in the past, so I speak from experience. But I won’t physiclally try to stop them. If they fall, I will try to be there to pick them back up, and offer them a way to improve their lives. That’s how a conservative libertarian thinks. Conservatives in this country believe in individualism, it’s those of us that are libertarians who want to remove the legal stumbling blocks that are presented to the individual’s freedom.

But you are obviously right that being a libertarian does not make you a conservative. I think I just kind of got on my soap box.