Logical proof for natural rights?

I was recently talking with someone about Libertarianism and they referred to property rights as simply legal fictions, not something that objectively exists in reality, and I found that I really could not find an objective way of proving property rights. The most common proof I see is the derivation of property rights from self ownership, but the problem I see with that is there really is no objective proof for self-ownership either. Many people will site Argumentation Ethics…that I’m proving my self-ownership by making this post right now, but I think that argument fails to make a distinction between control something, and owning something.

I am most certainly controlling my brain and my fingers to formulate these words, but is that the same as owning them? If I take my friend’s football and start tossing it around…I’m controlling it, but under no coherent system of property rights do I control it.

Anyways…I’ve rambled long enough…I feel really confused about this right now, and any clarity regarding this subject would be greaty appreciated.

I tend to see rights as the precondition for a flourishing society. The straightforward arguments for self-ownership are Rothbard’s, and those Kinsella develops in How we come to own ourselves, not so much argumentation ethics. I think epistemological arguments like those Antoine de Jasay develops are the way to go, e.g. shifting the burden of proof on someone who would upset control over an object I homesteaded, as to why it is alright for them to do so. Keep in mind that for any society to exist there isn’t an “if” about property and controlling resources, only a “how” it’s to be done (collectivists tend to argue in a vacuum, as if the legitimacy of their own society’s claim to ownership is not in question or equally if not more specious than any other such claim.) He is going to have to come up with good arguments to show why he, as a third party, can merely go and take what someone else has acquired through their actions, and why he (or anyone more generally) has a better claim to it.

Does he deny objective ethics as well? It’s fairly easy to show that any moral precept entails or has the form of a property right.

property rights as simply legal fictions, not something that objectively exists in reality

Of course they are fictions. Have you ever touched a property right?

I think I’m a moral relativist. There is no way of proving what “should” be done, unless you subscribe to some moral axioms and deduce things from there. My moral axioms might be different from yours. (Just like not all mathematicians agree on their axioms.)

I happen to like property rights since they are easy to understand, seem like common sense, and yield the best results overall. Also, an ancient relative of mine once stole Thugg’s food and got clubbed in the head; that branch of the family died out.

Assume that you don’t own yourself. Now, who does? Logically, whoever owns you has a greater claim to ownership over you than you. But on what basis do they make this claim? We’ve already assumed self-ownership doesn’t exist. If you have no basis for a claim to own yourself, then everybody else has less basis for that claim.

Since you are the person with the greatest claim of ownership of nibbler491, you are the owner of nibbler491. Anybody who started by negating your claim in the process necessarily negates any other claims. Under all circumstances, your claim is the greatest.

I happen to like property rights

Actually, on second thought, people disrespect property rights frequently. For example, taking a toy away from a misbehaving child. Or slaughtering an animal.

Similarly, if I was a superintelligent being, I might impose my will over you for your own good and establish a communist, utilitarian society where I choose interest rates. But I’m not. Only people like Obama, Bernanke, and Geithner are smart enough to do this.

So I guess I’m saying that one of my moral beliefs is that, among individuals of similar status, property rights should be obeyed. I don’t have a well-formed opinon about obeying them in other situations.

perhaps you have these opinions because you are thinking ‘pragmatically/utilitarianly’ and not ‘morally’ ?

Anybody who started by negating your claim in the process necessarily negates any other claims.

But what if I take ownership over you before you actually exist?

In a libertarian society I could pay someone in exchange for ownership of a bodily discharge or organ to be removed. What if I pay a couple for the production of a slave as my own property?

Is it also one of your beliefs that a person is owned only by themselves when they are born?

Also, is it reasonable to abandon ownership over oneself?

For example, suppose I run over your dog. Out of guilt, I quit claim myself to you as your personal property.

A good question to ask is, “If you don’t own yourself, who does?”

However, self-ownerhip is not merely an ethical axiom, but a statement of self-evident fact. Indeed, the self is the only thing our ownership of which is absolute, and totally inalienable. The only person who has direct control over the person (the body, the mind, etc.) is the individual, himself. However much one might desire another to take, or refrain from taking, a particular action; however hard one tries to influence another’s decision; however much one screams, threatens, even causes direct physical harm and pain (torture), the ultimate decision as to one’s action rests with the individual, himself. An outsider can only structure incentives as best he knows how… or kill, if the desire is a negative.

However, the consequences of action do not rest within the individual, but without. (Even something like the consequences of our choices as to what to put inside our bodies are outside our control.) The consequences of any action cannot be truly known until the act is taken, though our reason allows to extrapolate from experience the likely consequences. One may have superior judgment than another under certain circumstances, but the truth of who has better judgment than who can be determined ONLY by allowing the action in question to be taken (or not taken, as the case may be), and observing the results. In religious terms, God is the final judge in all matters.

Accepting that this ownership extends from the individual himself to the consequences of his action is nothing more than another way of saying that others should be required to take responsibility for their actions. Consequences can be positive or negative, and among the consequences of a man’s actions are the fruits of his labors. In fact the individual owns those consequences, quite literally, until another individual takes an action which ameliorates or deprives him of those consequences (negative or positive). Among the consequences of a person’s actions is the increased utility of physical matter: wealth. “Property” is nothing more than the recognition that it is proper to leave those consequences in the hands of the one who brought them about.

I reiterate: self-ownership is is nothing more than the fact that the final decision is always in the hands of the individual (whether you like it or not), and property is nothing more than that moment before outside intervention when the consequences of an action rest in the hands of the actor. No oath, contract, or other declaration or social construct can invalidate this fact. If one declares that he belongs to another, he can honor this if he likes (and it might even be a good idea to do so), but nothing can deprive him of the power of going against his “master’s” wishes.

If your friend makes reference to the status quo as an example of the consequences of adherence to this ideal, you must vigorously disagree. Under the status quo, the flow of wealth is, at many points, by many means both subtle and blatant, diverted from those who produced it, to others. Redistributive taxation is NOT the only mechanism and, the power ethic functioning as it does, the diversion is largely from weaker to stronger. The solution is not to seize and redistribute along arbitrarily determined lines (remember, it is the powerful who are the best at seizing, and thus most likely to benefit), but to study the problem diligently and ferret out specific injustices. Some of them are obvious and individual in character (plain old theft). Others are systematic, the result of a society-wide acceptance of practices and institutions hostile to a sound link between an individual’s actions and their consequences.

I think Hoppe’s argument that Kinsella quotes in that article is far more convincing than his argumentation ethics.

Yeah, but does anything “objectivity” exist? The more scientists try to observe any object, they find atoms, then particles, spontaneous comings and goings, the electron only exists as long as you are observing it’s path (thus is the particle even present without a man or woman observing it, meaning, it has no objective reality), and much else in Quantum Mechanics with such concepts as uncertainty principle and quantum superpositions. This has led scientists down a rabbit hole that to fill in their theories they have come up with String Theory for one. Yet to even see a string a particle accelerator or collider would have to be as big as the solar system and then, somebody might see a string. But even for these strings other dimensions have to exist up to 12, in some abstractions and thus those strings are not the object or firmament. So where’s this “object”? I just see a bunch of values, here one day, gone the next. Not that science doesn’t work. But so do property rights work.

I agree with you on Hoppe’s argumentation ethics, and the similar alternatives (Kinsella’s use of estoppel, Rothbard’s self-ownership “trilemma”, and Molyneux’s “Universally Preferable Behavior”) make the same mistake, in my opinion. The approach that I think is broadly correct is the one that Jon mentioned above: respecting rights is a precondition of human flourishing.

I liked this answer. Very well done. If self-ownership is negated, then all ownerships are negated. Therefore the conclusion along this line of thinking would be no ownership anywhere, meaning, everybody and everything violates each other. Whomever holds this perspective of no property rights is saying all is chaos… hmmm, interesting worldview…

Thanks

Are you being sarcastic?

I agree. I think it renders argumentation ethics redundant.

Sorry, those things have not been proven and indeed can’t be proven. It would amount to ‘empirically’ prove that reality doesn’t exist. Sheer nonsense.

Who are you saying “sorry” to? Are you saying that I don’t agree with you or you with me?

I’m saying that your assertion, supposedly backed by the scientific establishment, is wrong.

What assertion?