Madame Blavatsky... the Universe as an acting being

Then my point was that conscious action, following unconscious instruction, is not to blame for the instructions. You wouldn’t blame the virus because it had a malevolent developer. This doesn’t mean the developer can’t instruct the virus to influence him, say, by presenting with a message “don’t do mean things from now on”.

But really, you can’t blaim the unconscious either, since its automatic development preceded the ability of the consciousness to influence it. To me that’s just amazingly obvious… If a person is raised in a cave, you can’t blame him for not knowing English, or how to shake hands. And if you teach him how to shake hands, you can’t blame his consciousness if his unconscious has already developed a predisposition against hand-shaking.

when you say blame, what do you mean? is it just a thought?

and whether its more or less than a mere thought, how could you blame me for blaming the caveboy? are you assuming that my blaming the caveboy is entirely a conscious and willfull act, free of determined unconcious influence, and is therefore different to the caveboys lack of handshaking etiquette?

are you assuming that my blaming the caveboy is entirely a conscious and willfull act, free of determined unconcious influence, and is therefore different to the caveboys lack of handshaking etiquette?
Precisely. We all act based on thoughts subject to an unconscious algorithm which began development automatically, without conscious influence. It was responding to input, storing it, and developing its algorithm before there was an even consciousness to instruct. So why blame the consciousness, or even the uncontrollable unconscious? And if nobody can blame their own, they can’t blame anyone else’.

We need to stop blaming each other, and recognize that unhealthy behavior stems from an unhealthy subconscious, which in turn develops from unhealthy patterns during early childhood. Instead of beating each other over the heads (treating the symptom), we can focus on developing healthy subconsciouses (treating the cause).

but you have no grounds to say that my blaming the caveboy is entirely a conscious and willfull act, free of determined unconcious influence, and is therefore different to the caveboys lack of handshaking etiquette, because in your model there is no such thing.and you state why blame the concious. So you admit that you can’t blame a blamer, and your stance becomes somewhat incoherent to me.

But I think there is a way forward. You set up an example of caveboy, and you were pretty explicit, you pretty much laid out that poor caveboy was a victim of circumstance, and it would be unreasonable to expect better from anyone( a variety of possible variations of possible human’s) with a roughly similar history ( a variety of similar histories that are basically about being secluded in a cave more or less). You are convincing me, that there is no effacious reason to point to the agent, and lay blame on him, i.e. castigate, punish. because, he didn’t do it maliciously, or through a lack of trying to conform his actions towards the social. And indeed you are right. It would seem to be irrational to take such a reactive attitute to the boy, and almost certainly better to understand what his history means, and that if he is to become an agent in the future that can meaningfully be said to choose or not choose to shake someones hand, has had the benefit that others have had, of being exposed to knowledge of and positive inducements to conform his behaviours in the social sphere. (The only modification might be if you thought, others might be best socialised by viewing your reproaching the caveboy, but this would seem unlikely if such an observer had the same knowledge of the scenario as we are allowing his first contact to know)

So where are we with moral responsibility theory. Moral responsibility is all about, identifying possible agents, and then categorising whether it would or would not be effacious to adopt certain behaviours (some of which might be blaming), which can promote in said agents (and possible other agents in the social matrix) an increased probability of socialisation (in the sense of NAP/peace rather that communism , lolz).

Whilst agents would do well to heed your call, to consider the constraints in which a transgressing moral agent operated, they would also do well to not take it too far, throwing the baby out with the bathwater and, excusing outrageous transgressions as being , ‘oh, just actions that were determined by particular history that led to the unfolding of this determined universe’. Can you see how such a ‘permissive’ culture, could seriously undermine peacefull association and society?

I have to go to bed, cause I stayed up wayyyyyyyyy to late to chat with all y’all tonight. Here’s a good article I found about the compatability of moral responsibility with determinism, its called Moral Responsibility in a Deterministic Universe by Ray Bradford http://www.westminstercollege.edu/myriad/index.cfm?parent=2514&detail=7134&content=7584

Ok goodnight and I respect you were able to discuss this reasonably. It seems we agree entirely, although I would say that the problem isn’t carrying the logic and reasoning too far, but rather not carrying it far enough. If the logic is consistent, there is no “too far”. So if a person shoots 50 people in a movie theater when he’s 18 and it can be traced to patterns experienced at 3 or 4, then we should not stop at age 6 based on the reasoning “well, 5 is too far”. Ya?

but you have no grounds to say that my blaming the caveboy is entirely a conscious and willfull act, free of determined unconcious influence, and is therefore different to the caveboys lack of handshaking etiquette
Yes, that is my point. There is no grounds, because the act was precisely not free of determined unsconscious instruction. To me this translates to “there is no free will”. The will is determined, by definition. Again, this does not mean the unconscious may not isntruct the consciousness to influence it.

I look forward to reading that link. Thank you.

hashem, you are tiresome.

Here is Mises, he states it as completely and eloquently as I think it can be stated:

The Ultimate Foundation of Economic Science, 3.4, “Free Will”

Man is not, like the animals, an obsequious puppet of instincts and sensual impulses. Man has the power to suppress instinctive desires, he has a will of his own, he chooses between incompatible ends. In this sense he is a moral person; in this sense he is free.

However, it is not permissible to interpret this freedom as independence of the universe and its laws. Man too is an element of the universe, descended from the original X out of which everything developed. He has inherited from the infinite line of his progenitors the physiological equipment of his self; in his postnatal life he was exposed to a variety of physical and mental experiences. He is at any instant of his life—his earthly pilgrimage—a product of the whole history of the universe. All his actions are the inevitable result of his individuality as shaped by all that preceded. An omniscient being may have correctly anticipated each of his choices. (However, we do not have to deal with the intricate theological problems that the concept of omniscience raises.)

Freedom of the will does not mean that the decisions that guide a man’s action fall, as it were, from outside into the fabric of the universe and add to it something that had no relation to and was independent of the elements which had formed the universe before. Actions are directed by ideas, and ideas are products of the human mind, which is definitely a part of the universe and of which the power is strictly determined by the whole structure of the universe.

What the term “freedom of the will” refers to is the fact that the ideas that induce a man to make a decision (a choice) are, like all other ideas, not “produced” by external “facts,” do not “mirror” the conditions of reality, and are not “uniquely determined” by any ascertainable external factor to which we could impute them in the way in which we impute in all other occurrences an effect to a definite cause. There is nothing else that could be said about a definite instance of a man’s acting and choosing than to ascribe it to this man’s individuality.

We do not know how out of the encounter of a human individuality, i.e., a man as he has been formed by all he has inherited and by all he has experienced, and a new experience definite ideas result and determine the individual’s conduct. We do not even have any surmise how such knowledge could be acquired. More than that, we realize that if such knowledge were attainable for men, and if, consequently, the formation of ideas and thereby the will could be manipulated in the way machines are operated by the engineer, human conditions would be essentially altered. There would yawn a wide gulf between those who manipulate other people’s ideas and will and those whose ideas and will are manipulated by others.

It is precisely the lack of such knowledge that generates the fundamental difference between the natural sciences and the sciences of human action.

In referring to the free will we are pointing out that in the production of events something can be instrumental about which the natural sciences cannot convey any information, something that the natural sciences cannot even notice. Yet our impotence to ascertain an absolute beginning out of nothing forces us to assume that also this invisible and intangible something—the human mind—is an inherent part of the universe, a product of its whole history.[4]

The traditional treatment of the problem of free will refers to the actor’s vacillation before the final resolution. At this stage the actor wavers between different courses of action each of which seems to have some merits and demerits that the others lack. In comparing their pros and cons he is intent upon finding the decision that conforms to his personality and to the specific conditions of the instant as he sees them and thus upon satisfying best all his concerns. This means that his individuality—the product of all that he has inherited at birth from his ancestors and of all that he himself has experienced up to the critical moment—determines the final resolution. If later he reviews his past, he is aware of the fact that his comportment in any situation was fully determined by the kind of man he was at the instant of the action. It is immaterial whether in retrospect he himself or an unaffected observer can clearly describe all the factors that were instrumental in forming the past decision.

Nobody is in a position to predict with the same assurance with which the natural sciences make predictions how he himself and other people will act in the future. There is no method that would enable us to learn about a human personality all that would be needed to make such prognostications with the degree of certainty technology attains in its predictions.

The way in which historians and biographers proceed in analyzing and explaining the actions of the men with whom they are dealing reflects a more correct view of the problems involved than voluminous sophisticated treatises of moral philosophy. The historian refers to the spiritual milieu and the past experiences of the actor, to his knowledge or ignorance of all the data that could influence his decision, to his state of health, and to many other factors that could have played a role. But then, even after full attention has been paid to all these matters, something remains that defies any attempts at further interpretation, viz., the personality or individuality of the actor. When all is said about the case, there is finally no other answer to the question why Caesar crossed the Rubicon than: because he was Caesar. We cannot eliminate in dealing with human action reference to the actor’s personality.

Men are unequal; individuals differ from one another. They differ because their prenatal as well as their postnatal history is never identical.

Man has the power to suppress instinctive desires, he has a will of his own, he chooses between incompatible ends.
This is the root problem of free willys. What does he mean by “man”? The conscious acting portion of the brain? Or the unconscious, automatic, uncontrollable portion, responsible for the vast majority of brain activity, and which necessarily precedes action?

The conscious doesn’t have a will of its own. It is subject to the instructions of the subconscious. The subconscious may instruct the consciousness to influence the subconscious toward better behavior, but that is not up to the consciousness to determine. It merely follows instructions. Mises is confused if he thinks the conscious acting portion of the brain can function without instruction from the rest of the brain.

There is no free will. Will is, by definition, determined by factors beyond the control of the tiny portion of the brain which is capable of conscious action.

He means what you or I mean by man, objects in the universe that resemble, Myself, You, and Clayton.

Whats with all this unwarranted reductionism, that if Mises is talking about ‘Man’ then he must be talking about some sub part of Man, and what about its sub-parts etc… He is talking about Man, with a single whole brain, with consciousness and unconcioussness. He is not talking about either or, it is a unitary system, this is what an agent must be. It must be atomic, or else you are seeking homunculae, the real agents embedded in pseudo-agents, and might not there be realler agents in them?

Perhaps you will admit that Mises is not confused, as he wrote in what Clayton excerpted :

Will exists because you exist, and you make choices, even in a determined universe, there is still a you choosing. Do you want to throw out your own personhood? Just because some impossibly omnipotent creature might know about all the particular facts that lead you to demonstrate this or that behaviour, might be entertainable as a thought experiment, is not a warrant to say that there is no you, and that you do not make choices. I urge you to consider it a continuum problem, we don’t like to say that a simple system of rocks and water ‘makes choices’ because it doesn’t help to model the scenario like that, on the other hand, we do say that a complex system of a you within an environment including a society of similar people you might interact with, is better modelled teleologically, by giving credence to the notion that we are gifted with through introspection that we ‘make choices’. Somewhere in the middle of the continuum is a computer/ designed mechanism, that we would not want to describe as choosing, because it is so simple it is like rocks, and a little way over this is a complicated compter that is so complicated we are best of modelling it as a chooser, it ‘chose’ to play Pawn to D4. The problem is with the transition through the continuum and not with either pole of it.

Do you not introspect and find yourself choosing all the time? and why shouldn’t my model of trying to understand you, use that as a basis?

First of all, we need to get some terminology straight. Will “exists” in the same way that time “exists” or energy “exists.” It describes the change over time of the self. It is not a thing and should be reified into a thing.

Second, you keep imposing a dichotomy onto the Universe, seeking to locate the part of the Universe that is exempt from causality. This is Mises’s point - nothing is exempt from causality, especially not your mind; if it were, we would have no basis on which to talk about praxeology. Nevertheless, the fact remains that we choose, whether this be an “illusion” when considered from the vantage-point of an all-knowing being or not.

Clayton -

I’ve seen “free will” used in this thread as simply a synonym for “autonomous”. So someone who is drugged or zapped by cosmic rays might not be acting out of their own free will. I guess this use of the term is unobjectionable.

But the other use, the philosophical one, is more troubling.

The philosophical term “free will”, to me, is simply a statement that you are ignorant of a person’s operation. But if you had the Blue Brain project and could simulate someone’s brain and make precise predictions then you’d probably say there’s no free will.

It’s similar to how the result of tossed dice is “random” - provided you don’t know enough about the mechanical variables involved to predict the outcome.

*sigh - there are so many assumptions being made here that aren’t even acknowledged, let alone addressed.

Would you say that the only thing stopping you from understanding the operation of Microsoft Windows is a live trace of the machine code? Do you think the same thing happens in the machine every time you move the mouse? If you do, you don’t know much about computers. In other words, there is no simple micro-macro correlation in the brain (or even a computer CPU which is vastly simpler) as in the case of a gas. You guys seriously see no difference between a brain and a gas as regards scientific explanation??

Have you studied biology at all? Have you looked at the bizarre and twisted way that, say, blod clots work? This kind of back-asswards way of doing things is the rule in biological systems. And the brain is biological, remember. You guys seem to think the observation/data-collection part is the hard part and the easy part is correlating input and output. You ahve it backwards. As difficult and challenging as it is, the observation/data-collection part is the easy part. Reverse-engineering the damn thing into some kind of diagrammatic form where we can understand the causal relations between different brain functions… that’s the hard part. But even all of that is easy in Chalmer’s sense… after all the functional analysis is done, there’s the hard problem.

Clayton -

I may be repeating some things already said, but here are some of my thoughts on free will:

Humans don’t just behave instinctively, humans also make rational choices. We can weigh the costs and benefits of actions. When we make a choice, some of it is informed by our insticts, and some of it from our conscious self. Let’s look at Fear Factor. The purpose of the show is to offer people a choice. They can do something they either fear or find gross (i.e. something they normally wouldn’t want to do) and be rewarded, or they can not do the challenge and not be rewarded.

So, they are faced with a choice. The challenge is something they find gross or fearful. This is from the unconscious/subconscious/whatever-you-want-to-call-it self. Why are you afraid of spiders? Why are you grossed out by worms? Not everyone is, and to an extent, it’s not really something you can control. So what happens when someone decides to do the challenge? Their conscious self has weighed the costs and benefits and decided that the benefits outweigh the costs. What happens when someone decides against the challenge? Do we say their conscious self has weighed the consts and benefits and decided that the costs are too great? Or do we say that the person was so fearful or grossed out that they could not even weigh the choices?

Well, regarding free will, it’s a moot point. The person either chooses to do the challenge or chooses not to do the challenge. It doesn’t matter if he was bitten by a spider when he was 5 or collected spiders when he was 5. The point is, the person made a choice. You can call it free will or determinism. It doesn’t change the fact that people still make choices.

It seems people in this thread are opposed to acknowledging that there are (at least) two categories of brain activity, conscious and unconscious. When you say “a person made the choice to not eat a spider”, what you mean is that the brain has, since before it had a conscious aspect, been processing input and producing a cost benefit algorithm, and it sent instruction to the consciousness to act accordingly. The unconscious brain is responsible for producing perception, anyone who has studied anatomy and phisiology knows this. The consciousness merely experiences itself following instruction, instruction which is beyond its control.

When you say “he made a choice”, what you mean is his subconscious processed input through its algorithm and output the necessary cost-benefit result, and the consciousness experienced it.

My point is when someone says “a person”, they tend to ascribe unconscious, uncontrollable, automatic activity to the consciousness, which isn’t how it works. The consciousness doesn’t make choices, it just experiences as thoughts and actions the choices the unconscious calculated based on an algorithm that was developing before the consciousness ever existed.

When someone says “he changed his mind”, what is actually happening is the automatic, uncontrollable, unconscious calculations resulted in outputting instructions to the action center, the consciousness, to influence it.

My main point is that it’s a moot issue. Pyschology is not my area of expertise, so I cannot say whether you are correct or incorrect regarding what part of the brain is actually making the choices. The point is that the person is making a choice. You can call it free will, determinism, or whatever, but people make choices. People weigh the costs and benefits of the options, and they pick one, and only one.

The problem is that people who hold your view are saying the portion of the brain which experiences conscious thought and action was responsible for determining the thought and action. It doesn’t work like that. The part of the brain which does the deciding is beyond conscious control. The most the conscious can do is follow instruction from the subconscious to influence the unconscious over time.

Hashem, you describe consciousness as an epiphenoma,

are you aware of that? Have you considered alternatives and settled on this , or is it rather your default understanding?

Second question, do you believe that a brain is an assembly of ‘neurons for unconscious thoughts’ and other distint ones that are the "neurons for concious thoughts? Such that the former bundle pass on their orders to the second?

That seems reasonable. But then surely dogs have a kind of conciousness. And bacteria. And electrons.

Can a brain have two sets of ephiphenomena, i.e. two conciousnesses? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_personality

I’m not so sure epiphenomenalism describes my understanding of the physiology of the brain. Surely, processes in the brain cause mental phenomena. But the brain uses mental phenomena to drive its own mechanics. It is an automatic cycle. But the chicken came before the egg, as it were. I don’t think anyone denies unconscious, automatic brain activity preceded conscious action.

The vast majority of brain activity is unconscious, automatic, and unctrollable. That is, it happens without the need for input from the consciousness, and the consciousness has no route for directly controlling it. I don’t think anybody denies this, either.

So the unconscious brain can’t be blaimed for the cost-benefit algorithm it developed automatically and uncontrollably, and the consciousness can’t be blamed for experiencing output which was calculated without its control. It’s automatic. All “we” (our consciousness) do is experience the output. If a person is raised in a cave, you don’t blame him acting like a caveman. If a person is raised to be a murderer, you don’t blame him for murdering. You just acknowledge the reality and do the best you can to help him or, if his unconscious algorithm is too rigid (in other words, he is unable to “change his mind”) then you ostracize him.

And I don’t understand the science behind these kinds of claims.

The only way to know if someone is concious of something is for them to report that they were concious of it. But since their reporting takes time, isn’t it quite possible that they were concious before or while the “unconcious, automatic” processing took place, but their reporting of the fact was simply delayed?

This “science” is much more contentious than I think you are admitting. I’m curious what these have to say… from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereitschaftspotential#cite_note-L.26dC10-15

  1. ^ Lavazza, A.; De Caro, M. (2010). Not so fast. On some bold neuroscientific claims concerning human angency. Neuroethics 3: 23-41. [DOI 10.1007/s12152-009-9053-9]
  2. ^ Klemm, W. R. 2010 Free will debates: simple experiments are not so simple. "Advances in Cognitive Psychology,6: 47-65.

Edit: here’s one of these papers: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2942748/

This “neuroethics” stuff seems to be an ungainly amalgam of hard science and literary discourse. I have to agree with Clayton that at this point there’s not much hope of bridging the gap between stuff like praxeology and the physical processes of the brain. There’s not much hope of transcending human epistemology. I’m still looking forward to a cyborg brain upgrade though.

Does anyone deny this? Who thinks we were consciously acting before activity ever took place in the unconscious brain.

I’m curious what these have to say…
I’m not sure what you want me to say…? The article you linked me to ends regarding free will:

In a series of experiments in the 1980s, Benjamin Libet studied the relationship between conscious experience of volition and the BP and found that the BP started about 0.35 sec earlier than the subject’s reported conscious awareness that ‘now he or she feels the desire to make a movement.’ Libet concludes that we have no free will in the initiation of our movements