cannabis iz gud.
Don’t thread jack. Start a new thread.
Yes, but for example you would need to work out a deal to get the coast guard to stop intercepting the vessels that brought in trade. Or would you drive them away by force? [:O]
You will have to explain to me how is it voluntary. You can open a new thread if it is a tangent or some other geometric shape.
Tell them to stop violating our property rights and try to work out a deal. That doesn’t mean we have to formally declare independence. When the government interferes, we will force it to recognize that we are not their subservients any more.
This is precisely where I thought that the purchase of soveirnty might serve as an aid. Now States still do stop trade from soveirgn nations, but having bought either autonomous or soveirgn status from a State would give us some kind of protection and some leg to stand on under international law.
Anyone saying we should buy the land unowners but simultaneously maintaining it is wrong to purchase soveirgnty is being just a mite inconsistent. However, I wonder why those such as LibertyStudent who don’t believe we should pay either do not simply just move into to small island x and squat/homestead the land?
Nerd, this isn’t specifically directed at you, so please don’t take it personal.
First, I never said we shouldn’t pay. I said we shouldn’t buy property from the state. Why you might ask? Because the sales agreement would come with strings.
Second, buying something from the state, is a voluntary action. I’m tired of this BS about how every interaction with the state is coercive. We have options, besides looking for state acknowledgment/acceptance and we have property opportunities, with private individuals. The state does not own (or claim to own) everything, and that is the premise we should work from when selecting our areas to operate. If you disagree with this, start a new thread, and my friend Giles Stratton will come along and hand you your lunch in debate.
Third, ideology is important. But my concerns are practical. I don’t care what it is called, what the group religion is, or what we use for money. I want to know, how can we provide security cheaply enough to make this very profitable, and how can we minimize the risk of invasion without compromising the sovereignty of the endeavour.
Not necessarily wrong, just not needed.
There may be some interesting information here :
http://www.escapeartist.com/OREQ24/Offshore_Tax_Havens.html
I think just resisting a coast guard inspection or not permitting a policeman with a warrant to enter your property would be seen as a very formal challange to the state`s authority. I do not think they would be fazed by a lack of a written declaration.
I think ultimately the state would have to be bought off, either through inofficial chanells ie bribes, or by official chanells that would result in some sort of lease granting aspects of exterritoriality. Ideologicaly driven people may have the nerves for stand offs with the coast guard, but 3rd party vessels coming in solely for commercial reasons or tourist laden cruise ships do not want that sort of trouble.
The answer is, no we don’t need any such a club, as we would be trading with individuals and not with states or their corporate allies.
Anyone read Davidson and Rees-Mogg’s The Sovereign Individual? From which:
Some of us have already done that. >.>
Yeah, but then one has to act on it. For every libertarian who lives without regard for the state, there are problem 1,000 who just won’t acknowledge the legitimacy of the state.
I think he means we would stop paying taxes and such. Very few have done that. No one wants the Karl Hess treatment. Whether or not we should AT THE MOMENT is a entirely different question. Can’t one do more to hurt the state debating and arguing without being behind bars? However, what Kaju means is once we did such a thing as microsecession it would be much easier to do such a thing WITHOUT facing such kneecapping penalties and for the whole city to do so would be the equivalent of truly declaring independence.
Very few, yes. >.>
(Actually the IRS says something like 60 million full-time employed Americans don’t pay Federal taxes at all. Of course, they think that’s a bad thing.)
IMO, It’s idealistic for one to work in the pink markets entirley & expect to get some headway. Pink market activity to a certain extent may be required as long as the very monopoly that enforces it remains (or as long as one cannot replace, realistically, their pink market activity with more ethically & morally preferred black & grey), but wouldn’t the objective of doing buisness via non-Statist currency & trade be the solution to evading a certain portion of your “income” (or trade) from being taxed?
If one continues to pay taxes on pink market income, yet utilize spare time in black & grey market for trade (even better if said activity was not explicitly illegal or worthwhile for The State to catch, i.e. making products that may not do anything to instigate the attention of The State or the breaking of it’s laws, which would mean avoiding using copyrights, properties associated with State protection, etc.), & someone were to go after you, you could turn the issue into a matter of voluntary vs. involuntary, the ability of a citizen to be able to conduct economics & so forth? The ability for peaceful & voluntary trade to alleviate the recession, an argument many have, are, or will become sympathetic to?
Maybe part of the problem, is not thinking small enough; picoeconomics (nanoeconomics seems to be taken, but would be a more logical term ince nano is right underneath micro…) if you will, as well not thinking how consistent such small scale would have to be in order for growth to occur (vs. a few bursts of larger trade that isn’t running clockwork).
Sure, maybe beginning trade with something as benign as CD-R’s of text, assorted readings, minor foods & goods etc. aren’t as ambitious as the ideal in giving The State real competition (such as the eventually required PDA’s), but wouldn’t the focus (in the beginning) on profit through proliferation, rather than immediate profit from trade, help reinforce a high time preference strategy required to establish credibility & possible trade activity that would eventually grow (possibly exponentially), & eventually allow the desired trade for profit ? Spreading the results of the words, before the words themselves?
Forgive me semi-wall of texts, I just got off of work :\
Yes, my point is that we should start living as if the state is illegitimate once we settle our island. That is, just cease paying taxes, establish competing defense agencies, etc.
I didn’t say they should. I’m not exactly an agorist! 
I want in on this in a few years, but to be honest why would you want to pick an island in that area? A hurricane is going to come yearly and destroy a lot of what we made. Taking a new island and making a whole new society is quite tough. Why don’t we get involved in something like the free state project? There are already cities and municipalities there, we build more to this state. There are quite a number of people involved already. We can also open up another Mises Institute over there. I think it would be quite fun. On an end side note, I dislike that tropical weather. Not good for my white skin. [:P]
Ah, well. Nobody’s perfect.