My problem with voluntarism, self-ownership and 'freedom to contract'

I’ve been reading a bit about feudalism and medieval Europe, and it’s crystalized what bothers me about the philosophy of voluntarism and the concept of self-ownership.

The problem with both is that they don’t actually protect human freedom, because they allow for freedom to be ‘voluntarily’ given away. After all, if you “own yourself,” you can also “sell yourself,” into slavery for example. So, although it sounds like a concept which would protect freedom at first, voluntarism actually creates an intellectual justification for slavery.

For example, if I were dying of thirst in a desert, and someone came by and offered to give me water only if I signed a contract becoming their slave for life, it would apparently be justifiable under a theory of voluntary contracts for that person to enforce that contract, because it was ‘voluntarily’ entered in to. That’s an unlikely scenario, but this kind of situation happened all the time in Medieval Europe - someone would be hungry and landless and enter into a feudal contract with a land-owning lord, or and independent land owners would voluntarily become a serf of a local lord, becoming a serf and recieving a plot of land to farm, but they would also often lose many of their rights in the process, for life. Serfs might have to ask their lords permission to marry, for example, or might be banned from leaving their plot, and on and on. But, still, it was a voluntary contract, voluntarily entered in to by both parties.

This same kind of idea seems to underlie the idea that soldiers lose their rights when they enter the military, because they sign a piece of paper waiving those rights.

The alternative idea is one that I think is far more protective of liberty in the real world - more libertarian you might say - and that is the idea of “inalienable rights.” Inalienable rights are rights you can’t give away - you don’t ‘have’ them in an ownership sense, but rather they’re an inseperable part of you. Since you don’t own them, you can’t give them up, and any attempt to do so is fraud on your part and aggression on the part of the person who would have you waive them.

Self-ownership is often thought to be compatible, or even beneficial to property rights, but I’m not sure that this is the case. How can we legitimately own something we did not buy or create? Granting the principle of self-ownership implies that we can own things we didn’t buy, create or have given to us, since we do not buy ourselves, give ourselves to ourselves or create ourselves. Self-ownership introduces a case in which we supposedly can own something which we don’t buy, receive or create, and in that way is corrosive to a good theory of property ownership.

Voluntarism and freedom to contract are sometimes thought of as compatible with anarchism or even being anarchistic, but I’m not sure this is true either. Enforcement of contracts is a major wellspring of government. An agency with the power to enforce contracts looks very much like a government, whether it is publicly or privately provided.

Voluntarism is mostly concerned with process, while the idea of inalienable rights is mainly concerned with outcome. The later seems preferable to me, because whether we can exercise a certain right is more important than how our ability to do so came about. Process is important too, of course, but less important than results.

I didn’t know that libertarian self-ownership advocates actually believed that you could sell yourself, I can only think of two. The vast majority (that I’m familiar with) say clearly that you cannot sell oneself, that you have an inalienable right to yourself.

If you agree to something, it is not involuntary. If you really want to stretch the definition of “slavery” to include voluntary labor contracts, go for it. But there is a fundamental difference between someone agreeing to servitude, and being forced into it aggressively. Voluntarists make this distinction and oppose the latter.

Well there’s no free entry into the market, so I don’t see how this is voluntary. But lets take your other hypothetical:

So there’s basically no maximum price on this… you realize that the high price incentivizes entrance into the market right? And that competition between suppliers reduces profit margins? You’re setting up an example where there is only one supplier, but its in the interest of suppliers to edge in on eachother’s action…

Imagine a desert where people get lost and are in danger of dieing of thirst. Entrepreneurs could set up waystations with vending machines with water for 20 bucks. They could have buttons on them that would signal a patrol to come out for a certain price. The low cost of setting up these waystations would probably lower the price of rescue to about $1000 or less.

If you want to really tease and stretch the meaning of voluntary, nothing is voluntary. We are bound by birth to this mortal coil. But we can approach pretty free consumer choice very quickly when entrepreneurs compete for our money. I will DIE if someone doesn’t sell me food right now, but there’s so much competition i’m not extorted. This is what you’re afraid of. It doesn’t happen on the market.

Now for the flip side. It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the candledude, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. You can’t just make up a system wher leaders are nice and pretend it will work. Moreover, there’s an additional burden of proof on you, that is to show that not only should citizens form a co-op to represent their interests, but that they should also attack people who, although peaceful, do not wish to contribute to the co-op’s interests.

You can’t give up your freedom voluntarily. If you ever did, you would have done so freely. It can, however, be taken from you by aggressors.

I don’t know about “souls” but we homestead our bodies the way we homestead land. Our ‘moral agents’ are using the body. No one has a right to interfere with our peaceful activities.

You don’t see a difference between a private defense agency and a protection racket? Governments suffer from the incentive problem, the calculation problem, and the knowledge problem. They’re like an insurance company in that they accept liability for the lives of their citizens but then they don’t have to pay up if they screw up. No one ever agrees to this type of insurance. Its clearly inferior to competing service providers.

I’m not sure what you mean about the water fountains in the desert, but my point doesn’t require a scarcity of sellers.

There was a lot of indentured servitude in early America, and a lot of that was along the lines of 'I’ll pay for your boat ride over here, and in return you’ll be my slave for x years. There was a market of people offering and taking those kinds of conditions.

It may have been “peaceful,” but I think everyone has every right - a duty even - to interfere with the arrangement if the terms are violating fundamental rights of the servant - like if the servant can’t quit until their term is up. Same with modern day military personnel for example - everyone has every right, and maybe even a duty to help a soldier go AWOL if he or she wants to, I don’t think the fact they signed a contract is really relevant to the issue.

I didn’t know that libertarian self-ownership advocates actually believed that you could sell yourself, I can only think of two.

But if you can’t sell or dispose of something, what does it mean to say you “own” it? What kind of ownership is that?

If it’s not real ownership if you can’t sell it, why not just drop the language of “self-ownership” altogether for being misleading?

Ownership in every other case is a relationship between two entities, but a person is only one entity, so I don’t really even understand it in the first place.

You can sell it. But doing so wouldn’t change anything.

But if you can’t sell or dispose of something, what does it really mean to say you “own” it? What kind of ownership is that?

Since that’s not real ownership, why not just drop the language of “self-ownership” altogether for being misleading?

That type of thinking can be extended, as no libertarian agrees you can do anything you want with your property, do they all reject ownership entirely? Or perhaps ownership is conditional, somethings can be sold others cannot, some things can be aimed at others faces others cannot. There is quite a bit of work on the topic, read for yourself.

Ownership in every other case is a relationship between two entities, but a person is only one entity, so I don’t really even understand it in the first place.

No it isn’t (see above), again, you and your stuff don’t exist in a vacuum. Also, a mind/body dichotomy can be made in respect to the person, so its you (mind) and your body (body, obviously)

The scarcity of sellers is a variable which determines the degree to which individuals are involuntarily bound to sellers.

People seemed to be willing to do anything to get out of statism. Poor working conditions during that time can mostly be blamed on a lack of capitalism, not too much freedom.

What moral theory is this? It sounds only emotional.

Because I’m sure attacking entrepreneurs won’t discourage their activities. If you start liberating indentured servants, those contracts won’t be available to people anymore and they’ll just wait at the docks and rot… the most humane thing you can do is to outcompete the entrepreneurs by offering workers better conditions yourself. You don’t have to attack anyone.

Would you oppose indentured servitude if entrepreneurs made no profit on it? How much profit are they allowed to make untill you attack them?

Well its a state military so none of it is legitimate… but what is your logical stopping point? That you just go off and use violence any time someone is in what you think is a bad position? Even if they’ve contracted for it?

Has nobody seen the show dollhouse?

If one can’t sell themself or kill themself, they don’t truly own themself. Moans about chattel slavery are not valid arguments to limiting the actions of individuals. detailed explanation here

No you can’t. A bunch of clueless economists may claim otherwise but so what. People are entitled to their deranged opinions, you know. Regardless, slavery, by definition, is not voluntary. And a contract that forces you into slavery is not a valid contract.

And a contract that forces you into slavery is not a valid contract.

Incorrect. Read my link.

As with any contract you can change your mind at any time and owe only what you received in the exchange. That is the flaw in the military argument. You can’t just snap people into a ball and chain to stop them from quitting their jobs.

I’m left wondering what alternative system would work better here? The person with water can just give it to the thirsty guy for free if he wishes. Or the slave can breach this contract.

The slave could also sue the slave owner over the contract. The courts could decide the contract is “unfair” or whatever. It not only depends on the theory of justice being used, but whatever the courts decide. Typically, laws have a lot to do with cultural norms.

This is just another “hypothetical hopeless guy” scenario, and I personally don’t buy into them. I’ve lived enough around “hopeless” and “poor” people to know that most of them (at least the ones I grew up around) don’t even deserve what little they get.

If one can’t sell themself or kill themself, they don’t truly own themself. Moans about chattel slavery are not valid arguments to limiting the actions of individuals. detailed explanation here

Yeah, I’m going to disagree with Block on this one. Not all contracts are valid, any contract lacking the option to opt out isn’t valid and shouldn’t be upheld. Or as Jan Narveson put it " What we probably should say is that people may enslave themselves to others for as long as they want to, but beyond that, we should not uphold the contract." Now, maybe, if you could actually remove ones will from ones body it would be valid, but until then…

I don’t know if I agree, but Angurse has a good point. To not be able opt out seems like not valid contract. I don’t say, that “slave man” wouldn’t have to pay a price in money then to his contactor though.

P.S. I mean, I agree with “voluntary slavery contracts” (even though it looks to me as oxymoron), but I higly disagree with certain type of contracts - contracts which are made for a man to no be able to opt out (change his mind).

Slavery is defined as involuntary servitude to a person or persons. If it is voluntary then it is not slavery.

but I higly disagree with certain type of contracts - contracts which are made for a man to no be able to opt out (change his mind).

Like ones that involve slavery?

Angurse, have you read a Narveson book?

Angurse, have you read a Narveson book?

Indeed I have.