My thoughts on Socialism, Fascism, Communism and all the things in between...

In a previous thread, we were talking about socialism. And I was asked to watch a video by Walter Block on political spectrums, which I did. I enjoyed the video immensely, but I wanted to present some thoughts I had in response. As I’ve said before, I have an enormous interest (some might even call it an obsession) with politics, public policy and political ideology. So I wanted to say some things that I felt Block kind of glossed over. This is a very long post, I apologize ahead of time and applaud anyone who actually takes the time to read it.

I think that his description of Hitler as a man of the right is more than a little unfair. I think Hitler’s ultranationalism (rabid antisemitism was a state doctrine) did place him alongside many of his contemporaries who may have called themselves right wing people but the US right wing is rabidly anti-authoritarian and so is clearly very different from the Germanic right wing of the 20’s and 30’s (we can argue about George W. Bush, but I don’t consider him really very right wing, neoconservatism is another different sort of animal) and the socialist part of the Nazi movement was drawn from the left in Germany so I suppose that part has stayed consistent. Also, Hitler was a hardcore imperialist. Mussolini and Stalin, to my knowledge, were not heavily imperialist.

In many ways, Hitler transcended two party politics and became a man of the party-state and German totalitarianism and Stalinist totalitarianism were two very extreme movements but I don’t know that the word fascist should really apply to Hitler.

Obviously, Stalin was a communist, at least in name, but I think his use of the Marxist concept of class struggle and the plight of the proletariat were entirely rhetorical and ultimately, Stalin was just a totalitarian dictator. He wasn’t nearly as imperialist as Hitler though and I think that sets him apart from Hitler in many ways.

They both used purging as a way of dealing with political dissidents, but Stalin actually used purges as a way of just keeping people disorganized and in a pure state of terror. Not to say that Hitler didn’t do this, but I think the death count for Stalinist Russia was something like 81 million people whereas Hitler, as Block pointed out, only killed about 11 million (including six million Jews.) The sheer population of Soviet Russia at the time meant that there were a lot more “superfluous” people for Stalin to liquidate.

I happen to own the Fascism Doctrine and while Mussolini certainly used the word totalitarian to describe his ideas, I think he was in many ways his own breed of leftism and authoritarianism. Also, his form of militarism was like a mix between what we might call patriotism now and oddly transcendental spirituality. I think this passage best exemplifies what I have found in many study of Fascism (it’s interesting to also note that Mussolini was very consistent with his mission statement, I could be wrong though)

“Thus many of the practical expressions of Fascism - such as party organization, system of education, discipline, can only be understood when considered in relation to its general attitude towards life. A spiritual attitude. Fascism sees in the world not only those superficial, material aspects in which man appears as an individual, standing by himself, self centered, subject to natural law which instinctively urges him toward a life of momentary pleasure; it sees not only the individual but the nation and the country; individuals and generations bound together by moral law, with common traditions and a mission which suppressing the instinct for life closed in a brief circle of pleasure, builds up a higher life, founded on duty, a life free from the limitations of time and space, in which the individual, be self sacrifice, the renunciation of self interest, by death itself, can achieve that purely spiritual existence in which value as a man consists.”

I understand that this is mostly rhetoric, but I think it shows a very calculated attempt at explaining the Fascist ideology. As far as I know, neither Hitler nor Stalin were big on expounding on principles or making summaries of their political ideologies in quite the same way. In fact doublethink and newspeak (to borrow terms from 1984) were very much a part of Stalinist Russia, so that even their history was constantly being revised and rewritten. Hitler also apparently thought that ideology of all forms was a sort of obsession with the past whereas Nazism was supposed to be a movement of the present, a movement literally always moving forward to its next conquest, so ideology would have made Nazism a static concept. Hitler didn’t want that.

Now, another key feature of the Fascist state was corporatism (and in this way, perhaps it’s fair to characterize the US, as Block stated, as moving towards Fascism.) In fact, Mussolini also talks about the “corporate state,” something we’re seeing more and more of here. But the control of industry and the means of production were of secondary importance, based on my studies, in Nazi Germany. What mattered in Nazi Germany was the party, the Fuehrer and the world movement. You could almost call Nazism pan-Germanic globalism with an emphasis on race struggles. I don’t know that Mussolini was as much focused on race as he was focused on the omnipotence of the state as a moral ideal.

What I’m trying to get at are the massive levels of difference one sees in these different political systems and in terms of their ideology. So when we use the word “fascist” as a blanket term to describe corporatism in America, I think we’re unfairly copying and pasting a term that meant much more to the man who really founded the idea.

Technically, Stalin was a far left socialist/communist, but we must also acknowledge that there is a world of differenc between Stalinist Russia and, for instance, modern day England. England is heavily commonized and socialized, but there are no purges, no propaganda, no iron curtain, no regime of terror. So while we may see the socialization of industry in England or in the US, we don’t see many of the other features of Stalinist Russia, not to mention very few of the features of Nazism.

It’s arguable that modern liberals see themselves as the spiritual descendants of the Progressives of the 1920’s and 1930’s and 40’s, they don’t really see themselves as the spiritual descendants of Fascism, even though they almost worship the state as a God like Mussolini did.

Whether or not rhetoric and ideology matters is obviously up for discussion, but I think it’s fair to say that when labeling various political and economic systems, it’s important to try and be as concise and thorough as possible to avoid confusing FDR for Stalin or George W. Bush or Obama with Hitler as we might be wont to do if we made these distinctions purely on an-cap economic terms.

I understand that there are probably many errors and oversimplified explanations here but I tried to be as thorough as I could be.

I cite as my sources The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt and The Doctrine of Fascism by Mussolini.

Thank you for reading this incredibly long post :slight_smile:

“It is useful, in fact, to think of socialism as nothing more than complete permission for government to do what it instinctively wants to do anyway, which is order people around as much as possible.” - Lew Rockwell

See again, I don’t think that’s fair.

Who? [:|]

Right, but Orwell wrote 1984 about England.

But not in the fundamental manner which matters to a libertarian. Markets. It’s like saying there are massive levels of difference between different men, but that doesn’t change the fact they are still men.

Ancap is a philosophical and ethical position. Economics is a value free science. They are not the same thing. There isn’t different economics for ancaps and different economics for communists. The same basic laws apply. Some ideologies are more logically consistent with economic outcomes, and some are less so.

Not that it matters, but to continue the cycle of chasing our tails and squandering time;

Why do you not think it is fair?

I am wondering if it would be appropriate for us to do an excersize.

Create a table of attributes. For example In each cell we describe our understanding of the system as compared to the point presented.

Socialism Fascism Communism

Point 1 x y z

Point 2 a b c

Point 3 1 2 3

From this perhaps we can explore the differences. Tomorrow I’ll make my table.

Note that for whichever points we use I’ll likely request that we get further and further and further more fundamental and principled until we can identify the underlying structure which supports the meaning of fascism in contrast to socialism, how they differ and how they are alike.

Quoted for truth.

Ok fine. But I personally think that if we’re going to talk about socialism and fascism and communism as if they’re not political systems that we don’t do the conversation justice. I’m not saying that socialism is in line with economic law. I’m saying that it’s not just an economic system. It’s a political platform. I understand that for you, economics is all that matters. But for me, power is all that matters. And in trying to understand political platforms I always ask “who’s getting more power here?” Entire economies can be destroyed while a few powerful people live very pleasant lives. So I think power considerations are just as important as economic ones.

The will to power is, in my mind, a consequence of the selfish nature of man. The selfish nature of man is what makes markets work. So I think these topics are connected and that’s all I’ve got for tonight.

watch this excellent video bloom. LS linked it to me yesterday and it’s very good. it is not only about the theory of deflation, ie. insight into Austrain Business Cycle Theorizing, but Hulsmann also pulls the lecture together near the end with political economy insights. The outright power play that Keynes wasn’t shy about and openly revealed is interesting. It is not about ‘making sense’ by politicains and their shills. It is about power, ie. base-level exchanges in relation to the rest of society. anyways, enjoy. I learned a lot from the video.

I think this article by Roderick Long will help you better understand the relationship between Communism and Fascism.

They Saw It Coming

Ok, while I’m working through this article and this video, I wanted to add something that’s conspicuously missing from my synopsis of Nazism and Stalinism; namely concentration camps.

In America during WW2, we had internment camps where we rounded up people of Japanese descent and placed them in one area for observation. But they weren’t tortured, horribly neglected or killed (as far as I know.) The overwhelming cruelty and malevolent intent of Nazi camps and the total neglect of people in the kulaks show an entirely different level of antipathy that just wasn’t manifest here in the US with the internment camps.

Now, I do not know for sure whether these types of camps existed in Fascist Italy, I’ve actually read reports that Mussolini took in Jewish refugees from Germany and Poland during the Holocaust, but I don’t know if that’s true.

Also, someone might say “well, look at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, we’ve done the same thing here with enemy combatants.” I suppose, to a certain extent, that’s true. But I think we’ve detained maybe a few hundred people (I’ll have to check) so the level of severity just isn’t there. Although, I’m sure the detention centers suck for anyone placed in them.

What I’m trying to point out is that when Block calls the US Fascist, he may be partially right, but American Fascism is a much different thing than Italian Fascism and it’s certainly a long way off from Nazism or Stalinism. In fact, I would call it lower case fascism.

Also, I think that in times of war, it becomes justifiable to do the things the government has done to some of these people, not because it’s morally right, but because it sends a message. That’s a discussion for another thread though.

Because socialism is not about absolute control in the way he’s talking about. Block called it coercive socialism. That’s a fine definition. But there are a lot of people who are perfectly fine with socialism, they’re not getting pushed around. You are. But you’re marginal. So is Rockwell, so this idea that socialism is just an excuse to push people around is unfair. Socialism pushes some people around, it doesn’t push everyone around.

OT,

All of the lectures from that series are great. Hoppe is actually quite funny in a serious sort of way.

http://liberator.dk/index.php/emne/foredragsserie-1

It depends on the context of the discussion. Generally, the context here is first economic, then social. Most of the criticisms of socialism I have seen here in the last two years have revolved around the fact that socialism (in any of its forms) is not economically viable.

Economics is not all that matters to me. What matters to me is reality. Natural order. Power can be gained two ways. Consent or aggression. Aggression is socialism, it is statism, it is the political means. Consent is gained through negotiation, compromise, trade. The economic or market means.

When you say, “power is all that matters to me”, what you really mean is, “gaining power by aggression is all that matters to me” because you continually reject the economic (market) means for the political means.

And entire economies can emerge where everyone lives a very pleasant life.

You tease us by flirting with the truth. If only you understood praxeology, in its very simple Wikipedia definition. Then you would understand “human action”.

LS, I have a question that’s never really occurred to me before, based on what you just said.

If socialism isn’t economically viable, how long does it take for socialism to die?

I mean we’ve had socialism in this country (Social Security) since the 30’s and I think Medicare came around in the 60’s. I’m not sure about welfare and Medicaid. How long can these systems stay alive?

That doesn’t explain why it is unfair. Is he wrong? Carrying on…

“A lot of people” is an appeal to populism. Please avoid positivism. It’s illogical and its hard to discuss these topics if one party completely disregards logic in their arguments.

But I thought you were for individual rights?

You still haven’t explained how it is “unfair”. Unfair to whom? Unfair in light of which facts?

You’ve setup a strawman. Socialism doesn’t have to push everyone around to be socialism. You know that because you call the Democrat health care initiatives socialism, but you know that the ruling classes will not be subjected to those health directives.

And that’s the key part of the argument you are overlooking. Socialism is a two tiered system. Those pushed around, and those who do the pushing. To define it otherwise is nonsensical, and certainly not how any libertarian would define it.

Wrt to being marginal, the communists were marginal once. The enlightenment thinkers were marginal once. Christians, Jews and Muslims were marginal once. I am here doing what I am doing today because I am pulling on the margins and wrapping them back to the center. You are getting closer to me, not further away, even if you do not recognize it yet. I’ve seen dozens of people like you who resist acknowledging the nature of the state (aggression), and sometimes it takes days, and sometimes it takes months but they always come around. The appeal of truth is too great for anyone to resist it indefinitely.

Pulled from the other thread to this more relevant thread.

  • What about the central ownership of the means of production for a specific industry? Say like healthcare?

  • And for clarification what about central ownership of the means of production for education?

  • Now finally, what about the central ownership of the means of production for defense and security?

On another note, Bloom. I’m curious as to why you think socialism doesn’t work? In general.

  1. Not healthcare. They’re not nationalizing healthcare anyways, they’re nationalizing health insurance.

  2. Education is a tough subject, I don’t know enough about the current system to be able to say whether or not it’s really socialist and not just commonized.

  3. I think that defense and security are commonized. Meaning we all pay for it to be provided but that the people who actually create the stuff the military uses are private companies. In that video you posted where Block said he really couldn’t find many things the government owned, I think he was showing that the US is more commonized than socialized. Interestingly enough, he calls commonism fascism, which I don’t think is correct. It’s corporatism, but fascism was more than that. However, I’m not an expert on the military or anything so the complexity of the system is not something I’m intimately familiar with or anything like that. That being said, I see commonization as being different from socialization. I’m ok with commonism, less ok with socialism.

By commonism I mean that private funds are pooled together by the government to fund a system or institution. This is different from socialism in that with socialism, the systems are entirely nationalized and every stage of production and consumption is controlled by the government.

I understand that this may sound a lot like socialism to you, but in practice, it’s much different. There’s a book called Filters Against Folly by Garrett Hardin where the author does a much better job explaining my position than I probably have.

It’s not that I think socialism doesn’t really work, it’s that I don’t like it. But it can probably work.

Alright, so yesterday we were talking about political spectrums and I’ve been trying to find one that I think is simple but effective.

RIght now, I like this one: The Political Compass

I’m not saying it’s perfect or anything but we were going to try and find a way to draw distinctions between different types of political stances and I think this does an ok job. This was my result.

That test is horribly written.