OH DEAR.

[Nitroadict]

@Libertas est Veritas

@Ego

To anyone who wants radical libertarian ideas to make any sort of dent in our government, a leftist like Obama casually drawing crowds that outnumber us world-wide (especially when they could just watch him on TV) has to be a wake-up call that pamplets and tax-evasion isn’t going to be enough.

This will pass. There is no way that Obama can live up to the hype. He will likely be the next president (unless the GOP mud-slinging machine can take him down). He’ll flash his smile and get away with much due to his charisma, but in the end, he will not change anything. He is a consummate politician. And even if he wanted to change things, the president has limited domestic powers.

The economy is something of a wild card in all this. Bush is throwing money around like there is no tomorrow, just to push the economic downturn into the future. He is probably hoping to have it land on the next guy’s lap. Whether he succeeds or not, Obama will be dealing with big economic problems during his term. He will either be reviled or deified as the second coming of FDR.

Ditto.

[Kakugo]

I have been trying to find out if Sen. Obama really said these words or if they were simply put into his mouth by the media “misrepresenting” the truth.

Even if he said so, tell me, who finds it surprising? You Americans should spend a little time working and living in Europe. This is everyday politics around here. Open any newspaper, even the smallest local one, and you’ll be deluged with “the State ought to do something about this”. Last week our local newspaper run a very large insert (courtesy of a local politician and her cronies) on the evil of “bad” snacks and how schools should act against it. Namely, ban vending machines and confiscate “unapproved” snacks. Some politicians are very active proposing “solidariety” taxes: if I remember correctly the French already pay an extra on air travel tickets, namely to supply Africans with anti-AIDS drugs. How much is really going to help sick children and how much is pocketed by government-backed pharmaceutical companies is not clear. Others are very active campaigning for taxes which should punish “gas-guzzling” vehicles. Almost every European country already has high taxes on fuel and property tax on vehicles but that’s clearly not enough. Some political entities are already enforcing bans on supposedly “polluting” and “obsolete” vehicles. But scratch under the surface and the reality is that the car industry is desperate to keep up sales, at any cost. Being one the most politicized industry in the field they obvously turned to their good mates for help.

Perhaps you should check the list of Sen. Obama’s financial backers to see the truth behind his assertions.

[scineram]

Billary, please come to the rescue!!!

[Byzantine]

@Ego

I can only hope most people there are just wondering what all the buzz is about; otherwise, the left is horrifyingly legion; individuals in that crowd alone outnumber radical libertarians worldwide.

Oh dear.

I have asked people who intend to vote for him what, precisely, Obama is going to do that will make the Great Society work after 40 years of failure. They literally refuse to answer. Some even start dialing 911.

nitroadict has a point: by comparison, Obama looks relatively harmless next to the bitter, crazed McCain and the power-mad Hillary, who magnanimously determined that no actual New Yorkers were worthy to represent that State in the US Senate.

Obama also appeals to the StuffWhitePeopleLike-crowd’s craving for some cappucino-toned racially neutral figure (which he’s not) to unify us all under the rainbow flag.

The good news is after Barr siphons off the libertarian/constitutionalist vote, Obama will give us four years of incompetent PC hilarity (“Hail To The Chief” sung in Gospel or R&B, P Diddy joins the Council on Foreign Relations) before being politely shown the door. He can move to Georgia and work for Jimmy Carter, building homes for single baby’s-mommas.

[Ego]

@Nitroadict

@Ego

Are you really trying to say that because politicians have given speeches to audiences in the past, Obama’s speeches drawing audiences fifty times their normal size is simply “old hat”?

Remember when people thought his 10,000-20,000-strong crowds were historic awe-inspiring? He’s now drawing crowds the size of a small city! How is this not historic and frightening? This is nuts!

To anyone who wants radical libertarian ideas to make any sort of dent in our government, a leftist like Obama casually drawing crowds that outnumber us world-wide (especially when they could just watch him on TV) has to be a wake-up call that pamplets and tax-evasion isn’t going to be enough.

I don’t understand your desire to quietly sweep this under the rug; is it because you view Obama as the best candidate?

No, I do not support Obama, nor ever said or even implied that I view him as any type of candidate to be considered, endorsed, etc.

Your accusation that I want to sweep this under the rug is silly & a bit of a reach: I’m merely expressing my view that this (what I view as feigned outrage) was possibly out of bordem, and is somewhat irrational as this is simply larger scale stuff concerning people following a Statist to escape rule from other Statists, and overall, the state’s existence not being challenged, therefore not really changing anything for me.

Changing the size of the crowd does not change the basic concept of what is happening: individuals view him as the least of all evils, they view (or misconceptualize or misinterpret, as often happens) what his stances are as the best for themselves, etc. etc.

To me, this is merely a political backlash towards years under Bush II, which obviously, people feel motivated to vote out anyone who further a repeat of such, despite their well intentioned ignorance or naivety of Statism & other topics discussed here on the forum.

The implication that I am a fan of Obama falls flat on it’s face: I do not support, nor view, any candidate in politics as being the “best candidate” since I am an apolitical libertarian that no longer desires to use, nor employ or develop, political means.

It really seems like you’re fishing for an argument, especially when you accuse me of attempting to censor you, when at best, I was admitting to nitpicking concerning forum conduct, which wasn’t related to the what you brought up in the OP. I even recall being very casual about how silly, subjective & pointless my nitpicking was, & essentially dropping it.

What did I do wrong, other than voicing my opinion, & apologizing for nitpicking?

Nitro, do you really think that Obama will draw crowds of 75,000 chanting people who don’t like him, but think he’s the lesser of evils? You’re projecting your own views onto them.

[Niccolo]

@Ego

Oh, you went back and added some more:

I don’t disagree w/ the troubling aspect of thousands seemingly believing everything Obama says, but it’s hardly surprising that such a character would look appealing in the script that is politics when the “villians” (all of them are villians, really), look so much worse to said Obama supporters.

A politician drawing crowds of 75,000 is “hardly surprising”? Has this ever happened? It’s one thing for individuals (not all of his supporters are leftists, either!) to prefer a radical leftist candidate over the competition; it’s another for them to band together and show support in these numbers, especially when that candidate keeps slipping up and revealing his disdain for individual liberty.

I would think that most of them are there for the

Again with the “left” baiting?

Do you ever get tired of that? I look at Obama as being drastically on the right, like someone he mirrors - Benito Mussolini.

Tell me, would you consider Mussolini to be on the right or on the left of the political spectrum?

[Niccolo]

@Kakugo

I have been trying to find out if Sen. Obama really said these words or if they were simply put into his mouth by the media “misrepresenting” the truth.

Even if he said so, tell me, who finds it surprising? You Americans should spend a little time working and living in Europe. This is everyday politics around here. Open any newspaper, even the smallest local one, and you’ll be deluged with “the State ought to do something about this”. Last week our local newspaper run a very large insert (courtesy of a local politician and her cronies) on the evil of “bad” snacks and how schools should act against it. Namely, ban vending machines and confiscate “unapproved” snacks. Some politicians are very active proposing “solidariety” taxes: if I remember correctly the French already pay an extra on air travel tickets, namely to supply Africans with anti-AIDS drugs. How much is really going to help sick children and how much is pocketed by government-backed pharmaceutical companies is not clear. Others are very active campaigning for taxes which should punish “gas-guzzling” vehicles. Almost every European country already has high taxes on fuel and property tax on vehicles but that’s clearly not enough. Some political entities are already enforcing bans on supposedly “polluting” and “obsolete” vehicles. But scratch under the surface and the reality is that the car industry is desperate to keep up sales, at any cost. Being one the most politicized industry in the field they obvously turned to their good mates for help.

Perhaps you should check the list of Sen. Obama’s financial backers to see the truth behind his assertions.

Umm… I’m a European too and yeah… maybe you’ll see that in the news, but who exactly is going to pay for it? Fact is, Europeans - at least Italians - don’t pay taxes; however, Americans do.

That’s just the dynamic of the two. Europe is very statist in rhetoric, but rather Agorist in action. The United States is Constitutional in rhetoric and statist in action.

I prefer Europe myself, I can deal with the rhetoric.

[Ego]

@Niccolò

@Ego

Oh, you went back and added some more:

I don’t disagree w/ the troubling aspect of thousands seemingly believing everything Obama says, but it’s hardly surprising that such a character would look appealing in the script that is politics when the “villians” (all of them are villians, really), look so much worse to said Obama supporters.

A politician drawing crowds of 75,000 is “hardly surprising”? Has this ever happened? It’s one thing for individuals (not all of his supporters are leftists, either!) to prefer a radical leftist candidate over the competition; it’s another for them to band together and show support in these numbers, especially when that candidate keeps slipping up and revealing his disdain for individual liberty.

I would think that most of them are there for the

Again with the “left” baiting?

Do you ever get tired of that? I look at Obama as being drastically on the right, like someone he mirrors - Benito Mussolini.

Tell me, would you consider Mussolini to be on the right or on the left of the political spectrum?

Before I answer your question, it’s proof that you use arbitrary personal definitions if you confess to calling Obama a rightist; he’s a socialist who has admitted to being leftist! Modern definitions put in him squarely on the left; to claim otherwise is nuts.

As for BM, I’d say that he, like Hitler, combined the worst of both the left and the right. It’s difficult (and useless) to define him as either because neither modern leftists nor modern rightists agree with him.

[Ego]

@Niccolò

@Kakugo

I have been trying to find out if Sen. Obama really said these words or if they were simply put into his mouth by the media “misrepresenting” the truth.

Even if he said so, tell me, who finds it surprising? You Americans should spend a little time working and living in Europe. This is everyday politics around here. Open any newspaper, even the smallest local one, and you’ll be deluged with “the State ought to do something about this”. Last week our local newspaper run a very large insert (courtesy of a local politician and her cronies) on the evil of “bad” snacks and how schools should act against it. Namely, ban vending machines and confiscate “unapproved” snacks. Some politicians are very active proposing “solidariety” taxes: if I remember correctly the French already pay an extra on air travel tickets, namely to supply Africans with anti-AIDS drugs. How much is really going to help sick children and how much is pocketed by government-backed pharmaceutical companies is not clear. Others are very active campaigning for taxes which should punish “gas-guzzling” vehicles. Almost every European country already has high taxes on fuel and property tax on vehicles but that’s clearly not enough. Some political entities are already enforcing bans on supposedly “polluting” and “obsolete” vehicles. But scratch under the surface and the reality is that the car industry is desperate to keep up sales, at any cost. Being one the most politicized industry in the field they obvously turned to their good mates for help.

Perhaps you should check the list of Sen. Obama’s financial backers to see the truth behind his assertions.

Umm… I’m a European too and yeah… maybe you’ll see that in the news, but who exactly is going to pay for it? Fact is, Europeans - at least Italians - don’t pay taxes; however, Americans do.

That’s just the dynamic of the two. Europe is very statist in rhetoric, but rather Agorist in action. The United States is Constitutional in rhetoric and statist in action.

I prefer Europe myself, I can deal with the rhetoric.

Italy is a unique case; its new leader has expressed sympathy towards those who evade taxes. Your overall assertion that there are fewer and more lax regulations (and fewer and more lax taxes) in Europe is of course hilarious, but I think you were just joking around.

[maxpot46]

All I can think of when looking at those crowds is “damn, if I was an Agorist I’d wanna shoot myself about now” [:)]

[Nitroadict]

@Ego

@Nitroadict

@Ego

Are you really trying to say that because politicians have given speeches to audiences in the past, Obama’s speeches drawing audiences fifty times their normal size is simply “old hat”?

Remember when people thought his 10,000-20,000-strong crowds were historic awe-inspiring? He’s now drawing crowds the size of a small city! How is this not historic and frightening? This is nuts!

To anyone who wants radical libertarian ideas to make any sort of dent in our government, a leftist like Obama casually drawing crowds that outnumber us world-wide (especially when they could just watch him on TV) has to be a wake-up call that pamplets and tax-evasion isn’t going to be enough.

I don’t understand your desire to quietly sweep this under the rug; is it because you view Obama as the best candidate?

No, I do not support Obama, nor ever said or even implied that I view him as any type of candidate to be considered, endorsed, etc.

Your accusation that I want to sweep this under the rug is silly & a bit of a reach: I’m merely expressing my view that this (what I view as feigned outrage) was possibly out of bordem, and is somewhat irrational as this is simply larger scale stuff concerning people following a Statist to escape rule from other Statists, and overall, the state’s existence not being challenged, therefore not really changing anything for me.

Changing the size of the crowd does not change the basic concept of what is happening: individuals view him as the least of all evils, they view (or misconceptualize or misinterpret, as often happens) what his stances are as the best for themselves, etc. etc.

To me, this is merely a political backlash towards years under Bush II, which obviously, people feel motivated to vote out anyone who further a repeat of such, despite their well intentioned ignorance or naivety of Statism & other topics discussed here on the forum.

The implication that I am a fan of Obama falls flat on it’s face: I do not support, nor view, any candidate in politics as being the “best candidate” since I am an apolitical libertarian that no longer desires to use, nor employ or develop, political means.

It really seems like you’re fishing for an argument, especially when you accuse me of attempting to censor you, when at best, I was admitting to nitpicking concerning forum conduct, which wasn’t related to the what you brought up in the OP. I even recall being very casual about how silly, subjective & pointless my nitpicking was, & essentially dropping it.

What did I do wrong, other than voicing my opinion, & apologizing for nitpicking?

Nitro, do you really think that Obama will draw crowds of 75,000 chanting people who think he’s the lesser of evils? You’re projecting your own views onto them.

Ego, this argument has gotten quite silly & pedantic. You will understand if I will not bother further particpating with someone who, accussing me of projections & being some sort of “hidden” Obama supporter, is seemingly incapable of seeing their own projections & subsequent hang-ups concerning “leftist’s”.

For clarification:

Warning: Obama supporters may or may not vote for him due to seeing him as the “lesser of evils”; they may genuinley believe his rhetoric.

[Jon_Irenicus]

Is this going to turn into another one of those 20+ page Ego vs everyone else threads? [:D]

-Jon

[Ego]

You were the one trying to create an argument; you challenged me as to why I created this thread and (then went back and edited your post to make it seem more civil), you tried brushing off Obama’s record-breaking crowds of 75,000 chanting individuals as “old hat” (remember, this has never happened in America), and up until your last post, you insisted that those 75,000 chanting individuals simply view him as the lesser of evils (“nothing to worry about here, move along!”).

Did you expect me to not call you out after you said those things? I don’t get it.

[Ego]

@Jon Irenicus

Is this going to turn into another one of those 20+ page Ego vs everyone else threads?

-Jon

I hope not; I made this thread out of dispair and sleep deprivation after a late-night check of the Drudgereport.

If I had known this thread would upset Nitro so much, I wouldn’t have made it.

[liberty_student]

@Ego

Nitro, do you really think that Obama will draw crowds of 75,000 chanting people who don’t like him, but think he’s the lesser of evils? You’re projecting your own views onto them.

I’m not worried about this, except in the larger context that we now see the socialist masses becoming active and inspired to march off of cliffs, confiscate wealth and control the means of production.

Any libertarian, of any stripe (in my opinion) should be concerned by this development.

All of the moral purists in the world can be “apolitical”, it’s not effective if there are hundreds of thousands of politically active moral degenerates arrayed against them. Moral correctness doesn’t overcome basic math.

[liberty_student]

@Jon Irenicus

Is this going to turn into another one of those 20+ page Ego vs everyone else threads?

-Jon

Who says Ego is on his own? [;)] I’m a sucker for the underdog.

[Nitroadict]

@Ego

@Jon Irenicus

Is this going to turn into another one of those 20+ page Ego vs everyone else threads? Big Smile

-Jon

I hope not; I made this thread out of dispair and sleep deprivation after a late-night check of the Drudgereport.

If I had known this thread would upset Nitro so much, I wouldn’t have made it.

lol; fyi, when I said the argument was getting silly & pedantic, I meant my argument as well.

Not upsetting at all; my argument has been more petty than anywhere near upsetting, and I remember saying as much earlier. I just simply didn’t share the outrage at seeing numbers that don’t seem surprising to me given the current political climate; this doesn’t mean I’m trying to minimize anything, nor do I do not see it as a problem, I’m just expressing my opinion.

Overall, I’ve been clumsy and could’ve conducted myself a little better in regards of thinking before posting. I still think it was valid to object to, what Niccolo referred to as “left baiting”, but overall my petty argument over forum asethetics took priority over more constructive thoughts. I apologize.

Also - Drudgereport: Yikes!

Back on topic, since this thread did develop one despite bickering…

@liberty student

@Ego

Nitro, do you really think that Obama will draw crowds of 75,000 chanting people who don’t like him, but think he’s the lesser of evils? You’re projecting your own views onto them.

I’m not worried about this, except in the larger context that we now see the socialist masses becoming active and inspired to march off of cliffs, confiscate wealth and control the means of production.

Any libertarian, of any stripe (in my opinion) should be concerned by this development.

All of the moral purists in the world can be “apolitical”, it’s not effective if there are hundreds of thousands of politically active moral degenerates arrayed against them. Moral correctness doesn’t overcome basic math.

More or less ditto; I just wasn’t surprised by it.

I do, although, have a intuitive feeling that a great deal of this hype will be sapped by the time the 2nd year of the Obama Admin is in action. However, that’s of course assuming to what Liberty said earlier concerning Obama possibly not getting anything done (given the political climate); the opposite could just as well happen :\ .

[Nitroadict]

@Niccolò

Umm… I’m a European too and yeah… maybe you’ll see that in the news, but who exactly is going to pay for it? Fact is, Europeans - at least Italians - don’t pay taxes; however, Americans do.

That’s just the dynamic of the two. Europe is very statist in rhetoric, but rather Agorist in action. The United States is Constitutional in rhetoric and statist in action.

I prefer Europe myself, I can deal with the rhetoric.

I imagine this could make for an interesting topic concerning possible Agora undertones & potential in europe vs. the united states, especially in regards to: “Europe is very statist in rhetoric, but rather Agorist in action. The United States is Constitutional in rhetoric and statist in action.”

Could you elaborate?

[Kakugo]

That’s what I love to hear in the morning. Only the good Americans and Germans pay taxes. Italians and French, which obviously spend all their lives playing the guitar and drinking wine, and probably sport a huge pair of moustaches, do not pay taxes and live on welfare. Perhaps they are even “cheats”, not paying their fair share.

That’s what I LOVE about Libertarians: they live in a world of their own, mostly made up of theoretical examples and beautiful words. Oh, and let’s not forget about how open-minded they generally are. They spend all their time bragging about how important and wonderful freedom and respect for the others are. Then we come up with wonderful examples like these . The Italians are all mustachioed guitar players, basking in the sun and not working a single day in their lives. The homosexuals are all hedonists who probably live on welfare and are scheming to take over the world. Single parents are a ruin to the world. Stoners are all nice and fine while it’s about “pot legalization” but then again they do not “work hard enough” and as such are to be shunned. And so on.

You are really an interesting lot with many good ideas but your petty preconception will be your undoing.

[Libertas_est_Veritas]

@Kakugo

That’s what I LOVE about Libertarians: they live in a world of their own, mostly made up of theoretical examples and beautiful words. Oh, and let’s not forget about how open-minded they generally are. They spend all their time bragging about how important and wonderful freedom and respect for the others are. Then we come up with wonderful examples like these . The Italians are all mustachioed guitar players, basking in the sun and not working a single day in their lives. The homosexuals are all hedonists who probably live on welfare and are scheming to take over the world. Single parents are a ruin to the world. Stoners are all nice and fine while it’s about “pot legalization” but then again they do not “work hard enough” and as such are to be shunned. And so on.

So you are arguing against generalizations with a generalization? The irony is making my nipples explode with delight…