I don’t know how true this is and it sounds like something you’d hear Alex Jones talking about. But I heard that in California their trying to get something passed where all thermostats will have to have a special chip in them that turns over authority to the state government so they can keep everyones house below a certain temperature if there was some kind of fuel shortage.
No, I use the definitions used by Karl Hess.
I believe this is the correct analysis and I’m certain that Karl Hess is at least somewhat “modern.”
Oh, he’s a socialist, but he certainly isn’t a leftist.
Mussolini and Hitler were “centrists” then? Moderates? Really? Now you’re denying the modern definitions of left and right.
Says Mussolini,
Fascism is on the right indefinitely and forever defining its nature as collectivist, nationalist, traditionalist, misoganyst, and statist.
My God, Eggy! You truly haven’t been out of the US have you?
In my native Italia a new party, Il Popolo della Libertà, launched by Silvo Berlusconi holds not only Lega Nord, NPSI, Socialisti Reformisti, etc. but also the Fascist party founded and maintained by the daughter of Benito Mussolini himself, Alessandra Mussolini, Azione Sociale.
You do know that the world doesn’t begin at NYC and end in L.A. right?
Look at Europe and compare it to the US. Europe is a continent of dynamics. If Europeans don’t liike something, they don’t complain about it all day, they act. The Genoa riots are a perfect example of this. Could you imagine any “American Anarchists” hijacking swat busses, setting them on fire and rolling them back into the swarms of cops running in fear? No. What’s more, if they did it, most Americans would find sympathy for the cops! That’s not the case in Europe.
The US is a black hole of misery and loss. Sure, Europe is a corporate welfare state (even larger than the US) but no European actually follows or obeys it! Europeans are much freer in that respect than Americans. Isn’t that the point? To be free?
I’d have to see it to believe it Niccolò. Not that I think you are lie or exaggerating. My own experience just says the opposite. Honestly everyone other than you that I have met that has come from (western) Europe seems to be almost offended that I carry a gun and laughs (literally) at me when I speak of the evils of taxation and state.
Though I suppose I never looked much at whether they really MEANT what they say. And now that I think about it, my buddy from Portugal sure talks up a storm about that but the general impression I get from him (in an unspoken intuitive way… instinct) is not one that leads to me think he is inclined to “follow the rules”. Or perhaps those who immigrate here come here because they want the statism?
I have wanted to see Germany and Italy and Ireland (Ireland almost seems cliche now, haha) for some time now, so maybe I will get to see a bit of Europe first hand some time.
I think though, that the general attitude of Americans towards their government is a carefully crafted result of indoctrination. I often am saddened to think we went from Whiskey Rebellion to veterans day… that instead of a celebration of revolution, July 4th is now a celebration of state… [:(]
Thank you, I don’t recall laughing so well in a long time.
Of European dynamism? Actually, the exact opposite. The Genoa riots were a sign of the mildew that permeates European political and intellectual life. There is nothing dynamic about Europe. In fact, it is quite stagnant. The evolution of most political Europeans is first being a radical leftist, then slowly turning towards social democracy. Ideas about free markets are absolutely reviled.
Huh? Everyone I know is downright infatuated with the police. Sure, they have their gripes, but the state propaganda has sunk in sufficiently and they can’t seem to connect the dots.
Again: huh? How exactly do you avoid the welfare state?
It’s strange though that conservative parties now control Germany, France and Italy.
You probably mean this? And in fact, I’ve heard Jones talk about that; I wouldn’t, however, judge the information according to the source, but according to whether I can verify it.
At least for Germany, “conservative” doesn’t necessarily mean “small government, low taxes”; most self-proclaimed conservatives are social conservatives who rally for stuff like banning sex ads in late-night TV, “getting tough” on criminals or “restoring family values”.
Furthermore, even though the German chancellor has a ‘conservative’ party background, the government itself consists of conservatives and social democrats; and because we now have an additional socialist party winning percentage points in every new election, the status quo is shifting towards socialism rapidly. For instance, the German “classical liberal party” recently proposed to introduce “free government child care” for everbody.
Conservatism in Germany is probably going to end up combining the undersides of socialism and conservatism; regulating the economy and regulating peoples’ private life, too.
Well, I draw my information solely on my experiences and contacts within Italia. I can’t speak for Portugal or other places.
Yeeeeah… you mean people like Sarkozy who propose mandatory profit sharing with employees (no risk sharing, of course)? Or the immigration fear-mongers in Italy, who - if I remember correctly - have proposed kicking out all the Roma from Italy?
These people have nothing to do with free markets or freedom. They are just another form of statist populists. The idea that people could survive without their wise and benevolent control is absolutely foreign to them.
What part of Europe do you actually reside in…? If its in the UK… Then I can’t particularly disagree with you. Anglo-Saxons - barring some Irish and Scots - have historically been some of the readiest to submit to the state. Comparing the UK and the US is like comparing a tangerine to an orange. I don’t consider England to be all that European honestly… England is just… England (Great Britain, UK, whatever).
This of course doesn’t apply to all in England, there are a few instances of the Brats finally standing up to the government, but for God’s sake! They’re the only major nation to still hold a monarchy! I mean, I don’t know if you’re just paying attention to the English world - my guess is that you probably are, as I assume it’s your native tongue - but broaden the perspective a bit.
Again, I’m going to point to the Genoa riots.
Could you ever imagine Americans setting flames to an FBI bus like that? I couldn’t.
Do you know who the FLNC are?
Italians simply don’t pay taxes. I have family who have never payed an Italian tax - bar a few sales taxes here and there.
Most Italians are avid black-marketeers. Don’t believe me? Look here. Pavia University estimates that between a quarter and a full half of Italy’s GDP is hidden.
In Espana nearly one in four €500 bills are located in the country. Officials claim that it may be because of,
In France the level of tax evasion is double that of the United States.
I know it’s common for Angloids to just go about in fear of governments, but most other people really aren’t too terrified of the politicians in sleazy suits reeking of old spice and cheap cigars.
Again. You’re pointing to the politicians and not the people.
The politicians are the voice, the people are the action. In Europe, the voice and action often contradict one another.
This is a good article on fascism IMO.
I have to agree with Niccolo by the way. Europeans are not at all trusting of politicians. Any trust that there might have been is dead since the inception and progressive development of the EU. There’s a lot of distrust over here, and taxation is definitely not welcome - it’s seen at best as a necessary evil. Unfortunately, Europeans also tend to like the security that comes with the State, so they still rely on it as an employer, depending on the country. Envisage it sort of as the principle of “the State has screwed me over, now it’s my turn to screw someone else over to get back what is mine.” Britain is one exception to this. For all its image of being a cold, laissez-faire nation-firm, it has one of the most socialistic populations in Europe, as well as an extensive welfate-state. There’s huge resentment towards and envy of London, staunch distrust of privatization ever since Thatcher carried out her shock therapy (which was necessary, but anyway) and a preference for the political process, even if politicians are loathed. So yeah, don’t let stereotypes about Europeans fool you. There’s no real love for government over here either. The exceptions are the major European powers and some countries like Sweden. That’s it, though.
-Jon
Well free markets under democracy are impossible, so the conservatives have to play the game to win as long as the rules are what they are. But it is not true that Europe is infested with natural-born leftists. Like any other democracy the political spectrum goes to equilibrium around the marginal voter.
hey damn it… i like old spice…
I lol’d
Nicky, in France, young students destroy private property whenever the government threatens to shrink itself; don’t act like Euro-rioters are rioting for free-markets.
If you could come up with figures showing that western Europeans are robbed of a smaller share of their income than Americans, or if you produce a news story that suggests Western Europeans have more lax labor laws, I’ll be more inclined to agree with you.
Regarding Moussolini, it’s not useful to apply left/right labels to individuals as extreme as he is.
We have to remember that “left” and “right” are just labels that describe concepts; when we label someone like Hitler a “leftist” or Moussolini a “rightist” it’s misleading because your average self-described pro-“left” individual is opposed to the actions of Hitler, and the average pro-“right” individual is opposed to the actions of Moussolini.
In other words, and this comes back to your labelling of Obama as “right-wing”, you can choose to use the labels “left” and “right” in any manner you want. You can label Obama “right-wing”, but that doesn’t magically make self-described right-wingers suddenly agree with or support Obama; it’s the left that supports him because he wants to raise taxes on upper income-brackets, nationalizing healthcare, increase the minimum wage, etc.
On edit:
Karl Hess has the audacity to say this:
Amazing. It’s another example of the trick you like to pull that I explain in my signature. Lefists are not pro-liberty!
In France the labour market has been so screwed with because of government - leaving the young relatively immobile - I can’t blame them for destroying everything.
In any case, it is not about the amount of tax burden on the nominal level. The point is that in Europe, fewer people are so weak that they actually OBEY the government. Few people are actually on the books for labour and the labourers you see rioting are the ones that have been so exploited by the state system that they have no other option but to work at the behest of the beast.
Please, address some of the other examples also.
Nice evasion.
Have you ever been outside of the US? Better yet, have you ever been to NYC?
Speak of “concepts,” even if you were correct about the “average person” not liking being associated with Mussolini - which you’re not - every person on the right agrees with his policies and ideology. Such is what defines the right.
Obama is supported by the right though, at least his policies are. His policies, after all, are rightist.
As far as what other people think. I have no problem with other people being wrong, like I have no problem with you being wrong - which you almost always are.
First, Karl Hess is undeniably one of the greatest libertarians to have ever lived. In a coin toss, I think any libertarian worth his salt will regard him with more trust than someone like you.
Second, do you realize that you aren’t an eloquent writer - or even a very good one?
Using parentheses more than once in a sentence is a big “no-no” in English; not to mention how tacky and out of context the words are.
Arguing to authority?
Ad hom?
Arguing to aesthetics?
C’mon Nicky, you’ll need to bring more game than that, this isn’t kindergarten.
I don’t agree with everything Ego writes, but too many people here attack him and not his arguments in any meaningful way, yourself included in that group. While the hot air is refreshing in an age of global cooling, feel free to bore us with something relevant and on topic when you criticize someone else’s post.
Nope. It would never happen, since everyone would end up in Guantanamo. In Europe, the legal system is far more lenient towards leftist hissy-fits.
Why do you consider the Genoa riots as somehow indicative of anti-state sentiment? The whole anti-globalization movement is an extension of the pro-state left and, like all radical leftist movements, has turned into a proving ground for future moderate leftists.
Then Italy is an exception. Most European countries have a tax code that takes the taxes directly from the employer; the worker has no opportunity to evade taxation.
I can’t say I’ve ever met someone who is afraid of a politician, but I do know plenty of people who fear their henchmen.