Open Immigration and the Libertarian Perspective

Free enterprise consists of allowing capital flowing freely, which coincides with open border policies. I believe that this is a consistent view of the Libertarian perspective. However, how can you fix the problem of illegal immigrants? I understand that our nation has grown to be great because of our immigrants - our grandfathers and great-grandfathers (and grandmothers too) worked very hard so that the subsequent generations would have this day (although it probably won’t last very long). Congressman Ron Paul supports a no-amnesty policy, which it seems to be incoherent with the libertarian view.

What do you guys think of this?

Free immigration clashes with welfare. The latter gives an incentive to immigrate without the intention to work. Without welfare, there can be free immigration. I think Paul supports restrictions of immigration because of this point and that it is nearly impossible now to stop welfare.

Very good point, and I suppose in addition to welfare, we can add terrorists to that list. Paul also supports the elimination of obtaining citizenship by birth right and birth place (on US soil). Opinions on this?

Similar argument. With a law that grants citizenship to anyone born on US-territory there is no legal way to throw them out. That undermines the restriction of immigration.

I have heard that most countries don’t grant automatic birthright citizenship. In a perfect world, citizenship wouldn’t be an issue. But the welfare state makes it an issue.

There’s no such thing as ‘illegal immigrants’

in a perfect world who needs state?

Democracy The God That Failed really crystallized my feelings about this. The existence of the state makes immigration an unsolvable problem. Closed borders are unfair to those who wish to interact with those who happen to be on the other side of the imaginary line. Open borders are unfair to those who have paid taxes into roads and other public infrastructure and would be made to share them with newly-arriving freeloaders (welfare is only part of the problem). Government management of admission of immigrants is unfair because of the calculation problem, and because it will tend to systematically admit immigrants in such a way as to increase its own power.

Privatization of all public land is the only solution. Then those landowners can make a rational economic decision as to who to admit. People who do not wish to cohabitate with immigrants should be free to form covenant communities that mutually agree to keep out all foreigners (or whoever). Currently, anti-discrimination and privacy laws make this impossible. Those who do not mind immigrants should be free to intermingle and enjoy the benefits of increased division of labor. As with most areas, the one-size-fits-all policy necessitated by the state leaves most unsatisfied.

Aside from the welfare state, I believe that some people will also claim that letting immigrants into their countries will take away their employment opportunities. Although, to be honest, I believe that everyone who works somehow (directly or indirectly) enhances another person’s standard of living, regardless of national status.

Despite the welfare, I believe that the biggest argument people have against immigration is the threat of taking away their job opportunities. Especially during difficult times (like this one), we see many nations enforcing tough restriction on immigration, even the nations who in the past have been very opened to immigrants. Let’s take Sweden for example, recently, an extreme right wing party has gained seats in the Swedish Parliament because they ran on tough immigration stance.

Glenn Jacobs (Kane <–LOL) actually has written one of the best pieces on immigration I have ever read. I would strongly recommend reading this:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/jacobs/jacobs9.1.1.html

I disagree. If all land is private, you have no right to immigrate at all. You can’t travel across land that you don’t own without consent. Unused land should be free for anyone to move through.

No, I don’t disagree. I was referring to roads and infrastructure and such. Unused land should certainly be open for homesteading.

Oh, ok.

Wow, that article was written by the wrestler Kane? Crazy. I thought it was quite good.

I disagree. If all land is private, you have no right to immigrate at all. You can’t travel across land that you don’t own without consent.

Of course you’ve got a “right” to immigrate: buy some fucking land.

That should be the only criteria that defines “immigration”, either in an AnCap society or what we have now: if you can pay for a freaking house to live in, then you can live in it.

“Immigration” will be self-limiting because over-immigration will drive up prices and thus reduce the number that can afford to go there.

If you mean you don’t have a “right” to walk on everyone’s land, well, sure, because if you did, there’d be no such thing as property.

Unused land should be free for anyone to move through.

“Used” is a statement about value, and since value is subjective, there can be no objective definition of “used”, so this statement just doesn’t work.

OTOH, in general, the market is going to make it relatively cheap to “move through” land whose value to the owner would not be very affected by that movement, e.g. either they won’t prevent it because it is too expensive to do so, or there will be a cheap fee for it. I think you have in mind a model wwhere all land is owned and no one ever lets someone cross their land, so everyone is stuck in their little property (and those without property have nowhere to even stand). I just think your prediction that this is how things would work out is way off, as shown by countless data points from the past and present.

I personally find discussions that assume “rights” become hopelessly muddled, unless those “rights” are explicit clauses granted in bilateral contracts. Otherwise ‘rights’ are just religion, either explicitly - some higher power, god, government, etc handed them out - or implicitly, e.g. they are “natural” and were just floating in the ether until someone discovered them.

Most of the immigrants who “made America great” were white Europeans who came here in the 1800s and early 1900s. In 1900, the hispanic population in the US was less than 1/6th of 1 percent. In 1924, a federal immigration law favored Latin Americans over Europeans by exempting them from quotas, and the hispanic population has since exploded to 16%. Some predict that whites will be a minority by 2050. Hispanics have benifitted enormously from America’s ballooning welfare state, and from all the affirmative action policies orginally intended to help blacks.

Meanwhile, activist groups like La Raza are celebrated for promoting social justice, tolerance and diversity, while whites who organize to preserve and protect their culture are labeled racist extremists.

It’s no wonder that whites, especially poor whites, are getting tired of the discrimination they face from the government, and fear that the country is being “taken over” by immigrants. The natural reaction is exactly what we have seen in Arizona - an attempt to actually enforce immigration laws that have basically been ignored.

If it weren’t so tragic, it would be laughable how easily the 9-11 hijackers entered the country and went about their business planning and preparing for the attack. They set off red light after red light both before and after they entered the country, and it was as if the FedGov deliberately ignored all the warning signs. And those were terrorists! It’s no wonder thousands upon thousands of poor Mexicans move here illegally - the law simply isn’t enforced.

So, while liberty and freedom of movement are great, it might be better to have tight borders than the steady march toward a North American Union we are now experiencing.

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I remember seeing him on the weakest link once - that was the only time I saw him. He became the strongest link at the end of the show. Now, it has been revealed that he is a libertarian after all!! No wonder he was the strongest link? : P

Seems like we have a dark horse in our mist. Wrestle the state’s power!!!

So, while liberty and freedom of movement are great, it might be better to have tight borders than the steady march toward a North American Union we are now experiencing.

Wait: where did you argue that? Looks to me like you repeated standard rightwing justification for racism, and then simply stated that that’s better than an “American union”. Even within the context of your out-of-place statism, the conclusion didn’t follow at all from what you had said before.

Me, I’ll take that American Union over racism 8 days a week, with a large dose of “not trampling on civil liberties in the name of combating illegal immigration” thrown in for free and a smaller dose of “free movement of people, labor and capital across borders” as well.

You don’t get to stop me. I can walk wherever I want to. I can do whatever I want to in a true AnCap society, and there is nothing you can do to stop me. As long as I don’t endanger you (or maybe your property) you have no right to interfere with my actions. If walking across “your” land doesn’t place you, your stuff, or your land in danger, you will just have to let me walk. If not, you aren’t an AnCap after all.

You don’t get to stop me. I can walk wherever I want to. I can do whatever I want to in a true AnCap society, and there is nothing you can do to stop me.

You are too confused about your definitions to really discuss this with. What do you mean “get to”? You are appealing to some authority here: how is it AnCap if there’s a central authority who decides who “gets to” do what? How is it libertarianism if there is no property? Whatever you are espousing does not sound like a system I want to live under.

I fence my land and put up a sign: “Trespassers will be shot”. How come you still get to walk through my land? Other like-minded landowners who are not comfortable with people walking through it will do likewise. If you try to drag me to court I dont think you have a case: my land, my rules.