Even if this is true, you have to admit it comes because of the isreali state rather than from their jewish heritage.
Also one thing you have to remember is that western media decontextualizes, misquotes, and flat out lies about middle eastern politics.
Although I totally wouldn’t want to be a jew in one of the countries who hates isreal. The whole nationalist thing spills over to make the perception that all jews associated with the isreali state, though this is obviously wrong.
“Besides that Israel is a criminal state.”
Oh yeah.. as oppose to its neighbor States or any other State for that matter… Right?
I think they should either:
Use their own guns in order to steal from us themselves
or get a job and pay for the Israeli weapons themselves.
Snowflake**:“**Hamas has repeatedly stated that their beef is with the isreali state rather than with jews. Folks in the middle east hate jews because of isreal, not the other way around.”
Yes, and there offical words are to be trusted? And how much Jew would they be able to be under Islamic rule, Islamist politics don’t exactly have room for tolerence, freedom of speech and that stuff. There is no way they could maintain living in any form of western culture where they are without becomming targets for Islamists even if they had a non-regional voluntary defence association that never bothered anyone who didn’t bother there actual property…
Starting in 1870 and during the 20th centry there has been a mass exodus of Jews from most of the Arab world. That is not just because of the founding of the Brittish Mandate for Palistine (1920) and later the Zionist State, it is largley because of spreading anti-semitiism in the Arab world and the general poor position minorities had in these countries.
These people make child TV with people in animals suites saying that all Jews are evil and must be exterminated for fuck sake…
The video was removed but Saraa is a little girl and Nassur is a dude in bear-costume and there are other programs like this you can find:
Child on phone: “I want to kill them.”
Saraa: “We don’t want to do anything to them, just expel them from our land.”
Nassur: “We want to slaughter (Nidbah-hom) them, so they will be expelled from our land, right?”
Saraa: “Yes. That’s right. We will expel them from our land using all means.”
Nassur: “And if they don’t want [to go] peacefully, by words or talking, we’ll have to [do it] by slaughter.” (Shaht)
Though it is true some of the worst attrocities against Jews in the Holy Land started when the Crusaders arrived there and began murdering them…
Well, maybe. You have to look at their actual incentives though. They don’t have much to gain by promoting an international jew holocaust, but they have a lot to gain from destroying the isreali state.
Then there’s also the fact that there are a lot of christians in the middle east, and the fact that jews and islams lived side by side peacefully for 800 years… I guess.
Im an anarchist too
Nonsense! Voluntary defense is the best defense! You insure your possessions and person, transferring the liabilities of the many to the hands of the few. Those few, in an effort to reduce their liabilities, go around trying to find the most efficient way to do so. You’re allowed to pre-emptively attack people if you’re real sure they’re gonna do it, but its probably not profitable to just attack random people, especially since they can retaliate and harm your investment 
Wasn’t there a mass exodus of everyone from everywhere? Anyway, to maintain this position you have to claim that people just kind of started hating jews one day for religious or ethnic reasons. As opposed to political ones, which your link makes extensive references to.
Yeah, well as I pointed out, the casuality is the other way around. If there were aliens who came down and enslaved us, I’d be a little surprised if i didn’t see people calling for their extermination too.
Sorry, but if someone’s messing with your property, and won’t leave, like you’ve seriously asked them 10 times, don’t you eventually have a right to take their life?
Im an anarchist too
Nonsense! Voluntary defense is the best defense!
Yeah but most muslims aren’t anarchists especially not fundamentalist, Islam is a political religion. The alternative is not anarchy unfortunally, it is an Islamist state under which Jews wouldn’t be any more free then muslims under Israeli rule.
If they tried to live under western “capitalism” they would become prime targets for all islamic hate against the west. But as I also have pointed out that in turn is much empowered by American foreign policy meddling in there countries. If all western nations adopted a policy of non-interventionism the support for islamic extremism would most likley subside to such low levels that the Jews maybe could be left alone in as long as they only protected there own property and didn’t meddle with anyone.
But that is not going to happen either. So for the moment Israel is probably less evil then the alternative.
As an anarchist it is impossible to take a stand of any kind in this conflict, I am just trying to analyzie what is going and what would effects certain changes would have given the current world order.
Even conceding to whatever bleak worldviews, there are many alternatives. Some of them are unrealistic like peaceful anarchy. Some of them are more realistic like just leaving the country. There are plenty of safe places to live on earth that don’t require you to kill or be killed…
What?
^I hope you can imagine the fact that most Muslims are not so hateful. The two sides here are the oppressors and the oppressed, I think anarchists should be able to tell what “side” they are on. Too many people here are not looking at the conditions of the Palestinians, and act as if an oppressed people will have all the sense, logic and knowledge that more stable nations may. Stop taking such easy stances out of convenience, your anarchists for God’s sake.
Quote by hkarnoldson:“Yeah but most Muslims aren’t anarchists especially not fundamentalist, Islam is a political religion. The alternative is not anarchy unfortunally, it is an Islamist state under which Jews wouldn’t be any more free then muslims under Israeli rule.”
Well most people aren’t anarchists. You’re making assumptions about Islam- any laws in Quran regarding Islam is for Muslims only. There is no real hierarchy of leadership. What could be considered an “Islamist” state is pretty vague. Pakistani laws are very different from Saudi laws which are very different from Indonesian laws.
Quote by hkarnoldson:“If they tried to live under western “capitalism” they would become prime targets for all islamic hate against the west.”
What makes you say that? Islam is not against capitalism or free-trade. I don’t think Muslims associate free-trade as a concept that only the west thought up.
Quote by LibertyandLife:“I hope you can imagine the fact that most Muslims are not so hateful. The two sides here are the oppressors and the oppressed, I think anarchists should be able to tell what “side” they are on. Too many people here are not looking at the conditions of the Palestinians, and act as if an oppressed people will have all the sense, logic and knowledge that more stable nations may. Stop taking such easy stances out of convenience, your anarchists for God’s sake.”
Simply put. The situation for the Palestinians is that they feel completely hopeless and that no change will ever be brought about. They’re poor, destitute, hungry, and have been living to the point that they don’t care what happens to them. When other ethnic groups are put into the same types of situations, they don’t do so well either.
^Exactly, suicide bombings (or suicides in general) come from extremely desperate conditions.
Sadly, you don’t know what you’re talking about. The tensions between the “Islamists” and the Jews is both entirely manufactured and a recent phenomenon. The Jews and Muslims lived together in peace for a thousand years. In fact, Judaism is much closer (theologically speaking) to Islam then it is to Christianity. Indeed, the Jews were allowed to, and often did, pray in Islamic mosques. “Islamic fundamentalism” is not fundamentalism at all, but rather the inevitable response to 60 years of political slavery and oppression. The “Islamic fundamentalists” lose credibility every single day, and they would lose what’s left of their credibility much faster if America and Israel stoped bombing their homes, places of worship, ect.
I’d also like to point out that it wasn’t the Muslims that killed 6 million Jews in the last century, but rather white Europeans who were supposed to be Christians.
Israel is the brainchild of evangelical American fundamentalists and atheist Zionists. The evangelical’s are trying to end the world (literally), and the Zionists merely want power. The bible says that the world will end when the Jews return to the holy land (Israel) and when they rebuild Solomon’s temple (the Dome of the Rock, Islam’s third holiest site, is currently on its location).
But aren’t you forgetting that for those thousands of years the Jews and the Arabs had common enemies. The Hellenistic civilzation, the Roman Empire and then Christans: The Byzantine Empire and the Crusaders and also some Mongols.
During the Arab rule between the Byzantine Empire and the Crusades the muslims built mosques on Jewish holy grounds. After the crusade the Islamic-Mahluk rule imposed restrictions on where the Jews could worship.
Later the Ottoman Empire came along which allowed most minorites pretty good autonomy. But I don’t think that came from the goodness of the Sultans heart, it is simply and efficent to way to rule a vast empire. This would probably be much more difficult to accomplish without the emperial buracracy enforing it on the rulers of it’s provinces. A strong more ethically pure small state is more likley to oppress it’s minorities.
Muslim nation-building can take various forms. But I think the more likley to spring out of Palestine today is something resembling Iran rather then something resembling North-Africa … or the Ottoman Empire.
I think there are other reasons they did get along relativly well, that wouldn’t necessarly work today.
What is also importaint is the way they fight. Israel fight in the open with cleary marked combatants, try to avoid placing military targets next to civilans and mostly engage targets with some kind of military value. Hamas and the likes on the other hand focus exclusivly on civilan targets, don’t mark there combatants and hide in the civilan population. Such an enemy is impossible to fight without massive collateral damage. If they at least tried to bomb soldiers and governmet buildings…that would make it so much easier to symatize.
It’s always interested me how one could possibly rank holy places? In any case, the Dome bears no major significance in Islamic theology or history. Its “special status” is a modern invention which became expedient when the dreaded Jews took control of Jerusalem. It’s a propaganda ploy, and a good one at that: a Jewish temple set upon by a Christian church finally set upon by an Islamic mosque. How symbolic.
Anybody taking sides in Statist conflicts is a statist himself. The discontent with Israeli policies by libertarians is such an hypocrisy, it makes me sick!
If you go and side with Statist palestinians fighting for their alleged “freedom” from Israeli occupation just so that they can set up their own welfare/warfare State and slaughter their own people, then you deserve a medal for Statist of the year.
I think this itself is very good evidence of what happens to people who don’t have a state; they end up being enslaved by people who do.
This is where Mohammed ascended into heaven, and it’s the oldest Islamic monument that stands today. This gives it a lot of religious significance.
To spinn-off on the later part of my message why the Hamas don’t lay down there weapons makes no sense. They go a sympatetic ear from much of the worlds population and even most european governments these day. And that is despite there habit of blowing up children. If they just stopped doing that would Israel really have any other option then to pull out of the occupied areas?
The only explination to this I can find is that they are being used and brainwashed to for a larger agenda…
They believe in ridiculous ‘evil Jooooos control the world’ conspiracy theories. They are pure anti-Semites…
. When U.S. citizens and U.S. civilian boats are attacked in international waters by Israelis and the U.S. government won’t even condemn it, it DOES create a impression that the U.S. government is being malignly influenced by foreign interests.
The Israeli government is today the main fountainhead of anti-Semitism, in the same way that the U.S. government is today the main cause of anti-Americanism . People see Israelis and ‘friends of Israel’ encouraging the U.S. to fight wars in the Middle East, starving Gazans, bombing civilians with chemical weapons etc. etc. all while waving flags with stars of David on them. Other people then take the Israelis at their word that they are a ‘Jewish State’ and that these types of actions represent Jewish identity. One could even say that Israel has a perverse incentive to encourage anti-semitism in the world, because protecting Jews from anti-semitites is Israel’s raison d’etre and something which creates more Jewish immigration to Israel. Israel badly needs Jewish immigrants, because the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank are having children way faster than the Israelis are, and they’ll soon be a majority within Israel’s informal borders if current trends continue.
That’s the real reason for the Gaza blockade, of course.
Here’s my problem with this whole thing: even if we grant that Israel is an illigitimate country, and that the original Palestinians were unjustly forced out of their homes back when it was first established…
Are we expected to believe that present-day Palestians are willing to get get blown up just for the grudge of giving up the tiny area of Israel, and the few thousands of people who were forced out who are now virtually all long dead?
You have to believe that there’s something much more sinister going on here; dare I say, ideological.
(Also, the additional land that Israel seized were following winning the wars which the arab countries started. So that’s pretty reasonable in my view.)
The Quranic verse used to justify Al-Aqsa’s status refers to Mohammed’s “night flight”. Firstly, it is stated as a dream and, secondly, refers to him going to “the nearest mosque and the furtherest mosque”. Jerusalem was not in Islamic hands during Mohammed’s lifetime, nor was there a mosque there. It’s clear the verse is referring to Mecca and Medina. As I said previously, Al-Aqsa’s special status in the Islamic world is a modern political invention and, based on the theological reasoning put forward for this status, is clearly a sham.
As for Al-Aqsa being the “oldest” Islamic monument, I seriously doubt that. Compared to the Kaaba in Mecca?