Opinion on the Israel lobby

Miscellaneous General
61

"When U.S. citizens and U.S. civilian boats were attacked in international waters by Israelis and the U.S. government won’t even condemn it, it DOES create a impression that the U.S. government is being malignly influenced by foreign interests. "

First of all, the Mavi Marmara is a Turkish ship.

http://indonesiafirst.com/2010/06/mv-mavi-marmara-passenger-ship/

Secondly, according to maritime law, ships can be stopped in international waters if:

"SECTION VI : CAPTURE OF NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND GOODS

  1. Neutral merchant vessels are subject to capture outside neutral waters if they are engaged in any of the activities referred to in paragraph 67 or if it is determined as a result of visit and search or by other means, that they:

(a) are carrying contraband;
(b) are on a voyage especially undertaken with a view to the transport of individual passengers who are embodied in the armed forces of the enemy;
(c) are operating directly under enemy control, orders, charter, employment or direction;
(d) present irregular or fraudulent documents, lack necessary documents, or destroy, deface or conceal documents;
(e) are violating regulations established by a belligerent within the immediate area of naval operations; or
(f) are breaching or attempting to breach a blockade."

According to paragraph 67:

"SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

  1. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;"

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce

At the point that the flotilla refused to be stopped and searched, they became a warship and Israel was well within its legal rights to attack them.

“That’s the real reason for the Gaza blockade, of course.”

No the blockade was imposed in response to Hamas rocket attacks on Israel:

"Why can Israel decide what goes in and what can’t?”

Ms. Weiss Maudi responded, “In order to answer that question, we need to think about the events of the past few years. In 2005, Israel completed its disengagement plan and completely withdrew from the Gaza Strip, so that no Israeli military or civilian presence remained in the Gaza Strip. The disengagement plan ended Israel’s effective control of the Gaza Strip after almost 40 years of effective control… What currently exists is a state of armed conflict.”

She added that though Israel had hoped “that the disengagement would be used as a springboard for more positive relations with our neighbors in Gaza, in actuality, the opposite occurred. Instead of positive relations happening, the terrorist organization of Hamas seized power in Gaza and stepped up the rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli communities and towns in Israel proper adjacent to the Gaza Strip.”

“Therefore, in light of the Hamas-sponsored attacks on Israeli civilian targets, Israel undertook a number of measures against the Hamas regime. One of these measures is the imposition of economic sanctions against the Hamas regime in Gaza… Under international law, every state gets to decide what goes in and out of its borders. Also under international law, every state gets to decide whether it wants to forge economic relationships with any entity or state. Similarly, a country has a sovereign right to decide whether to impose economic sanctions on any enemy state or entity."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/137728

62

I don’t think the Kaaba is considered a “structure.” But I said monument, so you’re right. I think the Dome of the Rock is the oldest Islamic “structure.”

63

re: bloomj31

The Challenger I, one of the boats in the Free Gaza flotilla*,* is a U.S. flagged ship, which by law makes it U.S. territory:

http://www.freegaza.org/en/home/press-releases/1189-as-american-as-apple-pie

Also, your own citation of maritime law starts with “Neutral merchant vessels are subject to capture outside neutral water****s if…”

The Free Gaza flotilla were inside neutral, i.e. international waters, when they were boarded. This can be taken as an act of war by any state whose vessel was boarded, under international law.

Israel has every legal right to stop ships and search them once they have entered its territorial waters, or to demand they turn away, at the boundary of their territorial waters. No state has the right to search the merchant vessel of another state in international waters, as the law you’ve just cited says. This is really very clear-cut.

Also, you keep saying that Israel has a right to determine what goes into Israel. Ok, fine, but that statement only makes sense if the Gaza strip = Israel. You’re also referencing the term “blockade.” A “blockade” is a military term; in fact under international law, a blockade is an act of war. A state cannot blockade itself; a blockade is what one warring state does to another warring state.

"A blockade is defined by the Encyclopedia Britannica as “an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts.”

You can’t have it both ways; if Gaza is part of Israel, then it’s called customs, not a blockade; if it’s a blockade, Gaza is not part of Israel, but a rival state that Israel is at war with; so you should be saying “Israel has a right to decide what goes into and out of Gaza,” if that’s what you believe.

And no, no state can stop ships in international waters to perform customs searches, period. That is called state piracy.

If you are claiming that what Israel is doing is a blockade, then you are also saying that Gaza is an independent state and that Israel has no claim to Gazan territory; that Gaza has a government, and that Israel is currently legally at war with the government of Gaza.

I’m sorry, but words have meanings, especially in law.

64

Are you actually going to cite any law Benjamin?

65

Echoes of the Past in Israeli Ship Raid

It was a military raid on a civilian ship bound for Palestine, carried out in the international waters of the Mediterranean to prevent the boat from reaching its blockaded destination.

When the soldiers boarded they met with stiffer resistance than they expected, and so they used force, killing some of the passengers and injuring many others.

The commandeered ship was towed to port and the survivors were detained, before being deported amid a storm of international condemnation.

The year was 1947, and the boat - the Exodus 1947- was carrying Jewish refugees seeking to land without the permission of the British military force in charge of Palestine…

66

"Neutral merchant vessels are subject to capture outside neutral water****s"

how’s that for a citation?

67

Egypt shares a border with Gaza. They keep it closed, mostly to malign responsibility for the territory. Interestingly, Hamas rejected the 750-odd tons of aid these ships brought with them. Egypt has now opened up their border. Of course, if these “humanitarian” groups were actually interested in the well-being of Palestinians and not silly PR stunts they should be flocking into Egypt’s ports to get aid in via that border. Are they doing this now? Nope.

68

Ok Benjamin, you clearly have no laws to cite. Thanks, just wanted to make sure.

Just to be clear, I didn’t ask you for a history lesson or a guess as to what the geopolitical reaction will be.

69

@Benjamin: Interesting article for ya.

70

Actually Benjamin blockades can be legally enforced on international waters. Normally maritime laws requires that the blockade is sanctioned by the UN Security Council for this. But as long as the US supports the blockade of Gaza I don’t see how boarding US flagged ship headed there in internation waters can be any form of legal violation.

But to your favor I seem to rember a certain boat belonging to the US Navy being bombed by the Israeli Air Force during a certain war killing 171 american sailors and no one seemed to care then either…

71

You are revealing a stupendous amount of ignorance.

72

Stolen piece of real estate:

73

@ Hard Rain,

check out the comments section of that article.

The whole issue of Gaza is that Israel claims “it’s theirs” while also trying to apply the laws of war to it, as if Gaza were a foreign state. It’s contemptible nonsense.

74

But as long as the US supports the blockade of Gaza I don’t see how boarding US flagged ship headed there in internation waters can be any form of legal violation.

Gaza is an occupied territory, and occupied foreign territories are themselves illegal. The U.S. could not legally blockade Iraq, because Iraq is an illegally occupied territory of the U.S., not a state the U.S. is legitimately at war with.

The question itself is asinine. It’s basically like asking “can I legally lock someone in their basement while I’m robbing their house?” It doesn’t even make sense.

75

Oh, and speaking of which, Israel apparently killed a 19-year old American in their military assault on humanitarian aid ships in international waters.

Execution style too: four bullets in the head at close range and one in the chest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/world/middleeast/04flotilla.html?hp

I’m sure people will say “they had to kill him execution style in self defense, after they illegally snuck aboard his boat in the middle of the night armed with the most advanced modern weapons to prevent him from bringing hummus, writing paper and spices to Gaza.”

76

did he die?

77

Quote by Von Vodka:"Are we expected to believe that present-day Palestians are willing to get get blown up just for the grudge of giving up the tiny area of Israel, and the few thousands of people who were forced out who are now virtually all long dead?

You have to believe that there’s something much more sinister going on here; dare I say, ideological."

You only have to believe that if you completely ignore the living standards of Palestinians and act as if they’re living a normal life. They’re living under severe oppression and occupation. When they feel like they might die at anytime- some people rather die by their own hands than by someone else’s.

78

Ensuric:“The bible says that the world will end when the Jews return to the holy land (Israel) and when they rebuild Solomon’s temple”

You just said that Israel is the brainchild of “atheist Zionists”. So a little consistency here please. The above bible babble, therefore, should be irrelevant, according to you.

79

Where in the bible does it say this? Quote?

80

Marko: “Stolen piece of real estate:”

[Pathetic statist propaganda map]

Your map is nothing but statist propaganda. Most of that land was not settled so how can all of that been stolen? That map of “stolen land” can only make sense from a collectivist statist point of view. The map even says: Palestinian public land!!!

Amazing how libertarian theory regarding private property is just conveniently brushed aside so you can express your inherent bias towards one group over the other.

What are the Palestinian liberation movements fighting for? To reclaim some previously confiscated private property to its alleged original owners, or to establish a tyrannical State of their own?

You’re no different from Bloomberg but only taking the opposing side. At least he’s not claiming to be a Libertarian.