Out of curiosity, what is the AE (and everyone here's) position on the State of Israel and the US relation to it?

“Persistent” is not the same as effectiveness toward any given particular end.

How do you ultimately arrive at what is in your interest? What decides the end, the progress toward which is your very metric of effectiveness? Is it reason? Again, reason can have nothing to say about ultimate ends. If your ultimate interest, the progress toward which you use as your metric of effectiveness, is self-preservation, then it is your passions that dictated that. You’re psyche didn’t conclude with reasoning, “My ultimate interest is self-preservation, BECAUSE of X.” That would be a contradiction, since the “because of X” implies that “X” is your ultimate interest. You still seem to think that only hot passions qualify as passions. Passions are the unreasoned ultimate ends which, of logical necessity, MUST be the motivation of every reasoning act we do.

You say in another post that you would strangle another man if you reasoned that was necessary for your interest. And I’m sure you would do so with calm deliberation. But let’s follow the causal path of your motivation: you kill A, because if you don’t he might kill you. That part uses reason. It is imperative that you not let him kill you, because that would mean your death. That part uses reason. You don’t want to die, because that would mean oblivion. That part uses reason. You don’t want oblivion because… because why? No “because”. You just DON’T. That part of you that determines “avoidance of oblivion” as your ultimate end is not reason, since there’s no “because” or “therefore” involved. That part is a passion: an unrationalized primal urge.

I’m interested in what’s true about human nature, not inventing personal philosophies that please me.

  1. So when Microsoft survives for years because they persistently make better products that people want to buy, is this the same reason why states are persistent and why anarchies don’t exist?

  2. I see what you’re saying, because it’s difficult to put into words what my ultimate interests are, they must be passions?

  3. Fear of death is a fear of not existing. I reason that not existing would be less desirable than existing, so my aversion to oblivion, as you so wonderfully put it, is my awareness that living is more desirable than not living. Now, I’ll admit, I can’t be sure that’s true. And you’re right, survival isn’t something anyone reasons out, it’s hardwired into us. But…that instinct is on the same level of morals. Are you asserting that something so basic as emotions and instincts are better principles to guide behavior than reason? Just because my reasoning at some level is based on an instinct does not mean I’m better off not reasoning at all. Right?

Also, I have to tell you the truth, I would be a much “worse” person if all I ever used as principles were morals. I’d just do whatever I felt like doing. It’s only because I try to reason things out that I’m able to control myself.

Don’t be ashamed or discouraged. There are many libertarian/austrians who believe in limited government and some form of a military for self defense. You have to remember you are talking to anarchists which does not define all libertarians. Nor should it discourage you from reading the excellent economic material presented here. Hazlitt and Hayek are not in 100% agreement with Rothbard. I still recommend reading Rothbard.

BTW - I have not been a member here long (though I have been reading material here for a couple of years) and the anarchists can be impossible to deal with, I tried warning them about this as it does nothing to convince anyone of their position.

Which austrian economists are not also an anarchists? Because I’d like to study under them. I absolutely will not give into my primal urges and become an anarchist. I also would never become a hedonist. Anarchism is the same, in my mind, as political hedonism.

that’s because you’re an uneducated buffoon.

As far as I am aware Mises, Hayek and Hazlitt did not advocate pure anarchy but pure free market economics with limited government to provide protection of property rights and coercion by neighboring countries (military protection). Rothbard made the case for anarcho-capitalism. There is plenty here for you to agree with. Even if you disagree with Rothbard on these points his excellent works are well worth the read as they are very easy to read and understand.

I would ask you to refrain from ad-hominem attacks because they are neither conducive to an intelligent debate nor signs of an intelligent debater.

Alright, well I don’t train any disciplines that aren’t consistent with Gracie Jiu Jitsu and I don’t intend to fill my mind with anarchistic thoughts. It’s not fun to have to go back and fix bad technique that you learned at a lousy gym, I would imagine it’s even harder to go back and redo philosophy so that it’s no longer anarchistic. I don’t mean to sound insulting, I just don’t want to read Rothbard if I’m going to end up talking like you guys. I hope you will allow me my own choice in this matter.

I think I’ll stick with Hayek and Mises and Hazlitt.

Another thing is I have chosen to focus on, is what we do agree on such as there is too much government, regulation and useless laws. As for the military you will find wider agreement for a non-interventionist foreign policy, reduced military spending and the elimination of foreign bases as opposed to an outright abolition of the military. I have seen no evidence of wide support even among libertarians for the complete abolotion of the United States either. So don’t be discouraged.

Alright, well at least there’s that. Thank you for being supportive. I’m going to go train now.

In many of Rothbard’s works he does not even mention anarchy. They way I see it either his arguments are convincing or they are not. Personally I have not been convinced of anarchism and do not believe I will be. The economic arguments however I always believed and am now further enlightened and well read on them. Many various aspects that I was unsure of now make perfect sense. I’ve learned much more relevant economics here than in college. The only thing I am upset about is that I was unaware of this material.

Please take advantage of the free books in PDF form on this site… Hayek

Logical dissent, government means that markets are not free..

Yes

No, you sir do not understand what anarchy means, you know what you were told, anarchy comes from an = no/archos = ruler not logos(?) = Law

Straw… Anarchist is a dirty word now? Ah, yes, word redefinition…

I convinced you of what my stance is in AE, it may not be everyones, but I speak for myself only…

If you do not own everything you pay for, you can argue that into slavery, slavery is unacceptable to me, maybe you are ok with it, I am not…

If the productive society tells me that if I do not participate in it as they choose I go to prison, then yes I have the right to refuse, freedom has more to do with voluntary action, unfortunately you have yet to prove that governemnt enables any such voluntary action, if I have a right to self ownership, I have a right to self determination, if I have a right to self determination the society has to prove advantageous to me to encourage my consent…

No, I do not, I need to wait, eventually the house of cards will fall, I have the means to survive in post government America, before civility is restored, and the means to dissuade government intervention when it decides to come tax me, just because I live here and survived the collapse. The changes will come, simply because of the unsustainability of the system, and when the system rebuilds itself, it will be more “suseptible” to the conscientious objectors, there are more than a few of us down here. Fight your fight to maintain your government, but remember the law down here says if someone is on an individuals property for the purpose of robbery, shooting them dead is self defense…

Microsoft’s survival is moral and conducive to the interests of all involved. The state’s survival is not. The state’s persistence isn’t about voluntary exchange of products. It’s about coercive power and brainwashing.

No, it’s impossible to reason an internal justification for your ultimate interests, therefore they must not be arrived at by reason, therefore they must be an unrationalized urge. You don’t seem to really be grasping what I’m saying, so maybe Hume himself will be more effective:

The understanding exerts itself after two different ways, as it judges from demonstration or probability; as it regards the abstract relations of our ideas, or those relations of objects, of which experience only gives us information. I believe it scarce will be asserted, that the first species of reasoning alone is ever the cause of any action. As its proper province is the world of ideas, and as the will always places us in that of realities, demonstration and volition seem, upon that account, to be totally remov’d, from each other. Mathematics, indeed, are useful in all mechanical operations, and arithmetic in almost every art and profession: But `tis not of themselves they have any influence: Mechanics are the art of regulating the motions of bodies to some design’d end or purpose; and the reason why we employ arithmetic in fixing the proportions of numbers, is only that we may discover the proportions of their influence and operation. A merchant is desirous of knowing the sum total of his accounts with any person: Why? but that he may learn what sum will have the same effects in paying his debt, and going to market, as all the particular articles taken together. Abstract or demonstrative reasoning, therefore, never influences any of our actions, but only as it directs our judgment concerning causes and effects; which leads us to the second operation of the understanding.

Tis obvious, that when we have the prospect of pain or pleasure from any object, we feel a consequent emotion of aversion or propensity, and are carry’d to avoid or embrace what will give us this uneasines or satisfaction. Tis also obvious, that this emotion rests not here, but making us cast our view on every side, comprehends whatever objects are connected with its original one by the relation of cause and effect. Here then reasoning takes place to discover this relation; and according as our reasoning varies, our actions receive a subsequent variation. But tis evident in this case that the impulse arises not from reason, but is only directed by it. Tis from the prospect of pain or pleasure that the aversion or propensity arises towards any object: And these emotions extend themselves to the causes and effects of that object, as they are pointed out to us by reason and experience. It can never in the least concern us to know, that such objects are causes, and such others effects, if both the causes and effects be indifferent to us. Where the objects themselves do not affect us, their connexion can never give them any influence; and `tis plain, that as reason is nothing but the discovery of this connexion, it cannot be by its means that the objects are able to affect us.

Since reason alone can never produce any action, or give rise to volition, I infer, that the same faculty is as incapable of preventing volition, or of disputing the preference with any passion or emotion. This consequence is necessary. Tis impossible reason cou'd have the latter effect of preventing volition, but by giving an impulse in a contrary direction to our passion; and that impulse, had it operated alone, wou'd have been able to produce volition. Nothing can oppose or retard the impulse of passion, but a contrary impulse; and if this contrary impulse ever arises from reason, that latter faculty must have an original influence on the will, and must be able to cause, as well as hinder any act of volition. But if reason has no original influence, tis impossible it can withstand any principle, which has such an efficacy, or ever keep the mind in suspence a moment. Thus it appears, that the principle, which opposes our passion, cannot be the same with reason, and is only call’d so in an improper sense. We speak not strictly and philosophically when we talk of the combat of passion and of reason. Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them.

Most people here will say entangling alliances with none and let them be and so forth.

I disagree with that to an extent. Of course, I don’t like the idea of the US military getting involved, but I would be very happy if the Israeli state were to disappear, its government dethroned, and its politicians and bueraucrats tried and executed for war crimes against the good Muslim and Christian people of Palestine.

No, I’m asserting that they are necessarily the ultimate ends. Both passions and reason have their place in human behavior. The passions dictate the ends of behavior. Reason chooses the means.

I’m not advocating rampant impulsiveness. Your confusing the distinction between passion and reason with the distinction between low time preference and high time preference (which you’ll learn about in your forthcoming AE studies). The cool-headed long-term investor is no less ultimately impelled by his passions than the spendthrift hedonist. The difference is that the former is impelled more strongly by urges to provide for the future: but it is still an urge that impels him. Longer-term investment generally necessitates longer chains of reasoning. But that does NOT mean he reasons for the sake of reasoning. His reasoning is still motivated entirely by his passions: those passions just have longer-term objects.

What might keep you from stealing candy from a baby? “Reasoning things out”? How does that come about? You feel an urge to snatch the candy. But then you reason, “If I do so, I (a) might be struck by the mother’s purse, (b) be seen by my colleagues who will then ostracize me, or (c) be pestered by one of those pesty irrational feelings of guilt that I haven’t quite purged yet.” Those are statements of fact which your reasoning power is able to glean. But ultimately why do you refrain from candy-theft in response to them? If (a) does the trick, ultimately that stems from an unreasoned urge for self-preservation. If (b), ultimately that stems from an unreasoned urge for self-promotion. If (c), ultimately that stems from an unreasoned urge for doing right by others.

Self-restraint, like all acts (whether of commission or omission), may utilize reason, but they are ultimately impelled by the passions.

I agree, for the most part.

So why are you kind of defending the state based on the belief that there is need for a law? It doesn’t help you in any quantifiable and tangible way. It doesn’t really benefit you at all.

You ask, “Should people be totally free to do anything they want?” as if it’s a bad thing. But we agree, there IS NO BAD!

Jabob, I asked you what is the upside to military service and you replied

Now, you’ve said a couple of times (or more) that you act based on REASON, not on emotions, correct ? You explicitly rejected the idea that moral feelings are useful guides for action.

Well, it seems there’s just another big hole in your world view, since the reason for joining the military you provided is pure emotional nonsense.

Hey neocon Poptech,

Do you realize how well Jacob is making my case for me ? Do you see he rejects morals and is willing to murder anybody when told to ? And yet you deny that’s the nature of the military. Here, two nuggets :

Oh, Poptech, by the way,

Did you join the military, and if not, why not?

I never said I was willing to murder ANYONE if told to. I said I’d murder people if I thought I had to. I have never had to. Yet.