Out of curiosity, what is the AE (and everyone here's) position on the State of Israel and the US relation to it?

[JB31]

@Anarchist Cain

What is a bodyguard?

Yes I know, I went through it.

Validity doesn’t come through numbers.

Crime isn’t happening unless I am involved?

1. A bodyguard is someone who you pay to protect you but runs away when he’s actually needed. lol. Just kidding, sort of.

2. Then you should know, just as well as I do that the efficiency of a collective army outmatches any team of mercenaries you could ever put together.

3. Yes, it does. Practically. Ideologically, no. But realistically, yes it does.

4. I thought you were going to have a private police force?

[Laughing_Man]

@Jacob Bloom

It’s implied in the US Constitution. But I am a big believer in state’s rights. So it’s like you have one big house and then 50 smaller houses.

Where?

@Jacob Bloom

If I can enforce my will, I can do whatever I want.

So then you are a believer of ‘might makes right’.You see the contradiction in this. If the State is able to enforce their will on the whole populace then they can do anything they want. Oh rare freedom.

@Jacob Bloom

murder is reprehensible because it represents a threat against every member of the group who has yet to be murdered.

So murder is only wrong because it makes other people feel uncomfortable?

@Jacob Bloom

But, until evidence can be brought against the accused to prove his guilt, he is not a murderer. And only because we have courts and a prison system that can punish the offender, can his act ever be brought to any kind of real justice. Justice, morality, rights do not exist in vaccuums.

True, innocent until proven guilty but you yet again fail to realize that the law can be enforced without the state.

[Laughing_Man]

@Jacob Bloom

A bodyguard is someone who you pay to protect you but runs away when he’s actually needed. lol. Just kidding, sort of.

Really, this veneration of soldiers as some superhuman, anti-fear, do no wrong individual is really quite absurd.

@Jacob Bloom

Then you should know, just as well as I do that the efficiency of a collective army outmatches any team of mercenaries you could ever put together.

Then why are PMC’s hired to protect and guard high valued targets and individuals? The army is just grunts who use numbers.

@Jacob Bloom

Yes, it does. Practically. Ideologically, no. But realistically, yes it does.

Actually it doesn’t.

@Jacob Bloom

I thought you were going to have a private police force?

Indeed. However it would be silly to assume that a corporation for police protection would just serve me and me alone.

[Juan]

@Anarchist Cain

The free market can do everything except the military

The military have no place in a civilized society.

[Juan]

I think it’s a big mistake to try to prove to comrade neocon Bloom that the private sector can do the same job the military do, but cheaper. See, the job of the military is mass murder for political reasons. Also, the military is a parasite living off the market.

On the other hand, the market is not about killing people but about keeping them alive.

For the record, nationalists (sheer collectivism) and militarists are the worst enemies of libertarianism…

[JAlanKatz]

@Jacob Bloom

And Bogart, dismantle the military? Really? I’m perfectly willing to have my tax dollars go to the military, not so much the welfare state. So I’m not with you on that one at all.

I don’t care where you’re willing to have your money go. You can do whatever you want with your money. My concern is with what you’re willing to do with my money.

[Bostwick]

@nirgrahamUK

the same could be said for those seeking a palestinian state, they are arguably more intolerant on issues of race/ethnicity.

The Palestinians are more intolerant than the Israelis? Nonsense!

All the locals, Arab, Christian, and Jew, are much more tolerant than Israel’s European Colonizers. They lived in peace for a long time before this current conflict; which by the way, has nothing to do race, or religion, or location, it has occured wherever colonization has.

[JAlanKatz]

@Jacob Bloom

I think there will never be a sustainable two state solution. I think that that land will either be occupied by Jews or by Palestinians exclusively. The way it’s going, it looks like it’s going to be Palestinians. People will ask “why isn’t peace possible?” Because this is a religious conflict. Both groups believe they are divinely entitled to that land. Both groups will die defending that right and will not accept compromise. Being Jewish, I would like to see the land remain in Jewish hands. Especially since Islam is a religion that inevitably degenerates into factions of violent extremists and lends itself to dictatorships. I think Judaism needs its home. Judaism, with its Socratic tendencies towards public discourse and democratic assembly is just a better religion. What we need right now is for the United States to stay strong on its support for Israel and not ask the Israelis to capitulate to the Palestinians. Appeasement never works.

Assuming that there has to a one-religion state (or a state at all) what on Earth does it have to do with the United States? You have an interesting view of Judaism as the “better religion” since your description of Judaism seems to suggest that you haven’t studied much Jewish history or thought. You’re looking at what is commonly believed right now about Jewish thought and treated it as if it were mainstream Jewish belief. What religion is it, if you don’t mind telling, that took a purposefully circuitous route from Egypt to Israel in order to maximize the wars it fought? What religion has, in its daily morning service, a song praising the “bloody God of war” for destroying an entire nation? What religion has always believed that it has the Divine duty to destroy Amalek, and fervently prays each day for a Redeemer who will teach us how to identify Amalek? This is mainstream Jewish thought. The Talmud praises the Jews for killing a man for pouring water on his feet (they stoned him with esrogim.) The Talmud prescribes the death penalty for idolatry, adultery, and Sabbath desecration. By the way, we’re often told how careful the system was to protect the innocent and how most defendants were not found guilty if the court could find any way around it. Know what they did if they found you innocent of the death penalty crime, but still thought you were guilty? They jailed you, forced you to eat dry grains, then forced water down your throat, making your stomach explode. Then they could say they hadn’t executed you.

My point is not that Judaism is bad. I’m an observant Jew. It’s that this line of argument doesn’t work.

[auctionguy10]

@Poptech

I. This is one area I strongly disagree with Ron Paul when he made his comments about Gaza being a “concentration camp”, which is absolute nonsense.

This isn’t “absolute nonsense” at all- its more true than I would wish it to be. Israel has made life terribly hard in Gaza- these people have nowhere to run when Israel decides to mutliate them like they did recently- and they have little hope of having a real economy since they have to use underground tunnels to even try to get anything done.

@Poptech

Even implying that the Jewish state of Israel would engage in anything remotely like what they fight to prevent is disingenuous. You cannot just ignore Hamas and Hezbollah launching thousands of rockets into Israel and killing civilians and then demonize Israel doing something about it.

This idea is what is disingenuous. You ignore any and all deaths the Israeli military causes when it harms Palestinians. Those times are labeled as “Times of peace and quiet”- but when Hamas launches a rocket suddenly its palestinian aggression and poor Israel with one of the most powerful militaries in the world is simply defending itself. Why is the idea never entertained that the palestinians are defending themselves? Israel kills a hell of a lot more civilians than Hamas and Hezbollah have EVER did combined. For some reason people dislike suicide bombs killing civilians but see no problem with tanks and helicopters doing the same thing on a much larger scale.

[JB31]

@Anarchist Cain

Where?

So then you are a believer of ‘might makes right’.You see the contradiction in this. If the State is able to enforce their will on the whole populace then they can do anything they want. Oh rare freedom.

So murder is only wrong because it makes other people feel uncomfortable?

True, innocent until proven guilty but you yet again fail to realize that the law can be enforced without the state.

1. I’m trying to find it for you right now.

2. I’m a believer that might makes possible. I don’t concern myself with right and wrong in the moral sense because that’s a big tangled web of subjectivity. And yes, if the state could enforce its will on the citizenry, it could do whatever it pleased, but we shouldn’t allow things to go that far, we have to elect different people.

3. Not just makes them feel uncomfortable. Murder is punished because to allow is to condone and to condone homicide threatens the fabric of society because now…if I want to…I can just kill you without any fear of repercussions. I’m talking about incentives here.

4. I just don’t think you’ve thought about how changing the incentive structure changes the way the system would work. Privately enforced law would be more corrupt than state enforced law because the people paying the bills would ALWAYS win.

[auctionguy10]

@Poptech

Too much has been made of this myth of Israel coming in with bulldozers and forcibly removing Palestinians so Israels can settle, this is not happening.

It is no myth- israel does come in with bulldozers and forcibly removes Palestinians from their homes under the guise of “you don’t have a permit”. Although I suppose its a useless point since it comes from my own experience and you have no way of verifying it- but my great uncle was shot in the face right infront of his house for refusing to leave the home he built with his hands as the Israeli’s wanted it bulldozed.

[JAlanKatz]

@Jacob Bloom

1. Your first example is not applicable because we are all living under the same general house (the US) although between states, yes there can and should be different rules.

2. The majority of opinion is the democratic standard of approval. Morality has nothing to do with this really, since morality requires an enforcer. And I don’t believe in God. Do you?

The US is not a house.

You don’t believe in God, but you sing the praises of a religion in which disbelief can be a capital offense?

[JAlanKatz]

@Jacob Bloom

his organization is small and doesn’t represent a large number of the populace. I’m beginning to see that this may be because your system is clearly not broadly applicable. And just out of curiosity, what do your police officers do when you don’t need them? Do they sit idly around? Who pays for this?

This is absurd. I cannot imagine police officers sitting around idly. I have never been to Dunkin Donuts.

Do you have a gardener? What does he do when you don’t have any plants to work on? Sit around?

[JB31]

@JAlanKatz

@Jacob Bloom

I think there will never be a sustainable two state solution. I think that that land will either be occupied by Jews or by Palestinians exclusively. The way it’s going, it looks like it’s going to be Palestinians. People will ask “why isn’t peace possible?” Because this is a religious conflict. Both groups believe they are divinely entitled to that land. Both groups will die defending that right and will not accept compromise. Being Jewish, I would like to see the land remain in Jewish hands. Especially since Islam is a religion that inevitably degenerates into factions of violent extremists and lends itself to dictatorships. I think Judaism needs its home. Judaism, with its Socratic tendencies towards public discourse and democratic assembly is just a better religion. What we need right now is for the United States to stay strong on its support for Israel and not ask the Israelis to capitulate to the Palestinians. Appeasement never works.

Assuming that there has to a one-religion state (or a state at all) what on Earth does it have to do with the United States? You have an interesting view of Judaism as the “better religion” since your description of Judaism seems to suggest that you haven’t studied much Jewish history or thought. You’re looking at what is commonly believed right now about Jewish thought and treated it as if it were mainstream Jewish belief. What religion is it, if you don’t mind telling, that took a purposefully circuitous route from Egypt to Israel in order to maximize the wars it fought? What religion has, in its daily morning service, a song praising the “bloody God of war” for destroying an entire nation? What religion has always believed that it has the Divine duty to destroy Amalek, and fervently prays each day for a Redeemer who will teach us how to identify Amalek? This is mainstream Jewish thought. The Talmud praises the Jews for killing a man for pouring water on his feet (they stoned him with esrogim.) The Talmud prescribes the death penalty for idolatry, adultery, and Sabbath desecration. By the way, we’re often told how careful the system was to protect the innocent and how most defendants were not found guilty if the court could find any way around it. Know what they did if they found you innocent of the death penalty crime, but still thought you were guilty? They jailed you, forced you to eat dry grains, then forced water down your throat, making your stomach explode. Then they could say they hadn’t executed you.

My point is not that Judaism is bad. I’m an observant Jew. It’s that this line of argument doesn’t work.

Do you support Israel or don’t you? It’s as simple as that. And since you’re such an expert on Judaism (which I am not) mainly because I’m not an observant Jew, tell us all why Judaism is an awesome religion so you don’t sound so much like you hate your own religion?

I support Israel’s actions and a single state solution, so I want my country to support these things too. Now I cannot force any of you to agree with me. But if the majority is in my favor, the country will do what I want the country to do. If not, they won’t.

[JAlanKatz]

@Jacob Bloom

1. It’s implied in the US Constitution. But I am a big believer in state’s rights. So it’s like you have one big house and then 50 smaller houses.

What line in the Constitution says that there is no private land ownership? By the way, if this were true, what would follow? Can I write a piece of paper giving me your car?

[JB31]

@JAlanKatz

The US is not a house.

You don’t believe in God, but you sing the praises of a religion in which disbelief can be a capital offense?

1. It is our collective house, and if you guys don’t like it, you can always leave. Or you can stay here and try to convince people that we can all live in a totally private society without rules. I don’t…think enough people are going to take that position very seriously for you to have your way. That’s all I’m saying. Government doctrine needs to be workable.

2. I have never known a practicing Jew who wanted me killed for not believing in God. And I’m Jewish, my whole family is Jewish.

[Bostwick]

@Jacob Bloom

I don’t concern myself with right and wrong in the moral sense because that’s a big tangled web of subjectivity.

Sweet. I’ll be right over to steal your computer.

Oh, you mean you believe morality exist for other people, just not yourself? Never mind then.

[Bostwick]

@Jacob Bloom

1. It is our collective house, and if you guys don’t like it, you can always leave.

haha…

Love it or leave it. What were you saying about your beliefs not being mainstream?

[JB31]

@Juan

I think it’s a big mistake to try to prove to comrade neocon Bloom that the private sector can do the same job the military do, but cheaper. See, the job of the military is mass murder for political reasons. Also, the military is a parasite living off the market.

On the other hand, the market is not about killing people but about keeping them alive.

For the record, nationalists (sheer collectivism) and militarists are the worst enemies of libertarianism…

Nonsense, and I’m neither a communist nor a neocon. I believe in small government. That is all.

[JB31]

@JonBostwick

Sweet. I’ll be right over to steal your computer.

Oh, you mean you believe morality exist for other people, just not yourself? Never mind then.

Come and try to take it.