Personal Rights versus Property Rights

That depends on your definition of society. If you mean a civil order with proprietarian standards and division of labor, then you are correct. But if you refer to “society” as a fictional entity with responsibilities and rights beyond that of the individual, you believe in something that is not there.

Then you have never actually seen collectivism. As a matter of fact, only individuals exist. To pretend otherwise is to operate on a false premise. And when you build governments on that premise, you get almost 100 million people dead as men like Stalin and Mao try their damnedest to craft a “society” which denies the actual, objective truth of human existence. Whereas if you accept objective truth and reject the false premise of collective existence, you can then develop rational ethics that work in harmony with man’s nature, rather than non-ethical engines of society which would require the destruction of human nature to work at all.

The key word there is individuals. Only individuals act. Only individuals think. Only individuals make choices, therefore only individuals can possibly be regarded as responsible. It doesn’t matter if there’s one or a dozen of them, or 30 million of them calling themselves a “government”. It is still individuals choosing to act, always in a self-interested manner, and always individually responsible for their choices whether they or anyone else recognizes that fact.

No they are certainly not. Responsibility follows commission. You may feel a moral obligation to do certain things which had nothing to do with a commission on your part, but as a matter of rational fact you are not responsible for them.

Why do you assume that a person is responsible for a condition that did not follow any action of their own? Is it the very existence of want that creates responsibility? That cannot be true, or you are responsible for the health of every infant that dies of malnourishment, everywhere at any time. In that case, you are a murderer, because right now there is a child, somewhere in this world, dying of hunger and you, selfish little bastard, are doing NOTHING to help it.

Obviously, that’s absurd.

So does responsibility happen when you encounter the need? That can’t be true either, or I could walk into the same room where you are and make you responsible to provide me with insulin, which I definately need and am currently unable to obtain.

The only logical way to look at it is that everyone is responsible for themselves. That, by definition, precludes the assumption of any interpersonal responsibility.

And that, in fact, is the logical compliment of the negative liberty principle - everyone has the right to full enjoyment and control of themselves and their property, which by definition means that nobody has the right to any enjoyment or control of anyone else or their property.

Hence all interpersonal responsibility occurs either as a result of voluntary agreement or when one individual, through commission, invades the person or property of another. The first extends only so far as the agreement allows, the second exists only to the extent of the prior violation.

A man said to the universe:
“Sir I exist!”
“However,” replied the universe,
“The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.”

– Stephen Crane

The only sense in which living in a house is better than living in a cave is the subjective sense, i.e. a particular individual prefers the former to the latter so he builds a house. Presumably a society is needed to accomplish such a feat, but this is only a logical necessity not a moral requirement (the first does not imply the second). If “the species” “advances” (whatever that means) it is not intrinsically better or better off than it had been.

Here’s a better idea: all individuals get to have separate, independent goals for themselves; to achieve them they ask each other to perform certain tasks for a good or service in return. Thusly each party comes closer to his original goal by using the other as a means to an end in the process. They are NOT all in this together and do not need a common goal. Succinctly, society exists (in an abstract sense) for the individual, not vice versa.

Hi Len,

I picked those quotes up from two different posts, and I have a question. Where do you derive your morality for property rights from? Do you use reason to argue for self-ownership and hence extend that to property rights? If so, and I have yet to see people use religion as a basis for property rights (feel free to link me though), then the other question is, are you using the same morality, as derived by reason, to justify your reasons for prostitution and pornography as immoral? If so, I would gladly see a rational proof of their immorality.

You’re confusing cooperative and collective. Collective says “we will have the same interests, and so resources to pursue those interests are ours”. Cooperative says “we share a particular interest, so we will also share some resources.” Collective subsumes the individual to the group, cooperative subordinates the group to the individuals. Cooperative is ad-hoc, limited in context, and temporary. Collective is all-consuming, out of context, and permanent - it is a logical impossibility, and terribly harmful if attempted.

Oh, I guess you really did mean collective. sigh

Exactly, there’s a big difference between cooperation in the form of division of labour and trade, and collectivism as a philosophy that subjugates individuals to a ruling class, masquerading as the representatives of some abstract illusion of communality.

Actually, in my example, the child dies because one person chooses to forbid a child of a certain race access to required medical services. That person is responsible. They might be able to live with that…might even relish in it. But they are as responsible for that child’s death as if they put a bullet in it’s head.

No they are certainly not. Responsibility follows commission. You may feel a moralresponsible for them. obligation to do certain things which had nothing to do with a commission on your part, but as a matter of rational fact you are not

Why do you assume that a person is responsible for a condition that did not follow any action of their own? Is it the very existence of want that creates responsibility? That cannot be true, or you are responsible for the health of every infant that dies of malnourishment, everywhere at any time. In that case, you are a murderer, because right now there is a child, somewhere in this world, dying of hunger and you, selfish little ***, are doing NOTHING to help it.

Obviously, that’s absurd.

I agree that the existence of want does not create responsibility.

In my example, the person who denies care that is readily available to a person who needs that care is responsible for their actions.

This is not like choosing to not send money to feed starving children in Africa.

This is an on-duty firefighter who chooses to let a black child burn to death in a house because they do not like black people. This is a person who sees a child who has been left in a car on a 100-degree summer day and keeps on walking without calling the authorities.

This is a situation where a person, who is in the business of providing a certain service which saves lives, and can do so with little effort or risk to themselves, who makes the conscious choice to not provide that service knowing full well that it will bring about that person’s death. And they make that choice for no business, financial, or rights-based reason.

I don’t see collectivism as such a bad thing. Every business is a collective of people all working towards a common goal. I play my part in trying to advance that goal, while at the same time pursuing my own goals of increasing my experience and knowledge…as well as receiving financial benefits.

I don’t see why a “society” can’t be something similar. Why shouldn’t humans come together for some larger goal? Why shouldn’t there be an overall “purpose” to living in a certain society? Individuals can still have their own individual goals, and can go about their lives as they see fit within the bounds of the law. But in the bigger picture there is something larger.

Jonas, there is nothing wrong with voluntarily coming together to work towards a common goal; is anyone saying otherwise?

If you feel there should be a “larger goal” for “society”, I assume that you won’t force others to go along with you. Am I correct?

I have faith that you aren’t that smug/arrogant!

I have faith that you aren’t that smug/arrogant!

Your faith is well placed! :wink:

Nobody should be forced to be a part of a society. I am very unhappy with the current state of the US…the society of which I am currently a part of. I could, at any time, just up and leave and find a different society that I feel more happy with.

But I don’t think a person should be allowed to actively work against the collective (sheesh, I hate that word). Just as a business would be completely within its rights to eject an employee that is working against the ideals of that company, a society should be allowed to act against those whose ideals are detrimental to those the society has embraced.

We’re getting somewhere; I feel it!

What gives the owners of Mom & Pop’s Pizza the right to fire an employee who is rude to customers? They own the store and they pay the employee with their own money.

How is that analogous to you forcing me to fund Social Security because it’s the goal you feel “society” should have? It’s not. The following is analogous, though (ignore the combative tone, I was arguing with some leftists on another forum!):

When Mom and Pop started their business, they set down as one of the founding principles that employees should not be rude to customers. In fact, it is so important to Mom and Pop that they made it a rule and put it in the contract for employment: you cannot be rude to customers.

The founders of a society set down the basic tenets of what they think the society should be like. Certain ideals are so important that they create laws which must be followed for continued access to the society…your societal contract, if you will.

I’ll even move the analogy further. If Mom and Pop take their pizza business public, it is possible that the majority of shareholders can override Mom and Pop’s belief that being rude to the customers is wrong. This “majority” can even decide that more customers like snarky and rude employees, and so they vote to change the employee contract to state that employees need to be rude whenever they can.

If I was working at Mom and Pop’s store, and hated being rude to people, I would leave and find employment at another business where the ideals and rules more closely matched my own.

In your swimming pool analogy, if I was part of a gated community and signed a contract stating that I would contribute to group projects if the majority voted for it then I would be bound by that contract. Or I can move. But if it is my own property, and I have entered into no such agreement with my neighbors, then I am free to do as I like.

[see my next reply]

Have you ever signed a contract like that? I haven’t, and I’ve worked in food service. Are you claiming that the owners of my store would not have been within their rights to fire me if I was rude, since not being rude wasn’t in my contract?

Just what are the “founders of a society?” What does access to the society mean? If it means what it sounds like, you’re just saying some people have the right to force others not to associate with a third party. Yet, you’re making this argument because you want to force people to associate.

Sure - sounds like capitalism, no argument there. But the shareholders own the company, unlike the current scenario. If you’re simply arguing that owners shouldn’t discriminate for bad reasons, no one is arguing. Ego might think that doing so wouldn’t be unethical, but I’d actually agree with you that it should be.

Ok. So if my store is my own property, and I’ve entered into no agreement with my neighbors…

What is a “society”? If I get a couple of my friends together and decide to form a “society” with you in it, would that mean that any violation of your rights (including torture, theft, imprisonment, murder, etc.) would become fair? Of course not. “Society” and “community” are leftist euphemisms for “collectivist conquest”.

Yes, if Mom and Pop choose to sell shares of ownership to other individuals, those individuals would then have a say in how the company is run. No one is contesting that!

Yes, and that’s completely fair! No one is contesting that!

Any fair person would contest if Mom and Pop decided to hold an election with you (against your will) and voted 2-1 to force you to pay them 30% of your income (and if you don’t like it, your only recourse is to move away).

If I buy a large area of land and decide to sell pieces of it to other individuals as long as they keep their land in good condition, then that’s fair (I’m sure about that for a variety of reasons, but I’ll pretend that I am).

However, as you said, that’s not the same as the majority of individuals in some arbitrary area deciding to get together and impose their will on the rest of the individuals unless they move away. That’s exactly how government works. Of course, in some cases (like North Korea), instead of a tyranny of the majority, there is a tyranny of a single dictator.

It’s impossible to prove that it’s immoral to control other individuals against their will (just like it’s impossible to prove that it’s immoral to torture innocent children). However, if you do believe that controlling other individuals against their will is immoral, anarcho-capitalism is for you! [:)]

My posts tend to be confusing pre-edit; tell me if there’s something you didn’t understand!