Property Rights

There is no “right” to electricity or education or healthcare.

With every new technological invention we are eager to slap on the label of “right” in order to provide the people with a service which will get us more votes.

Telephone? Let’s finance a national system. How can we deprive people of the telephone? It’s cruel!

Internet? Same thing.

Electricity? It’s only been around for some 200 years and suddenly there is a right to it. The number of years is irrelevant anyway. No one has a “right” to anything which belongs to anyone else or which would require someone to force someone else to do something (some who are not purists might argue food and water, but that is a separate issue).

The 10,000 men analogy above is perfect. Paraphrasing, if killing 1000 3-year-olds can provide health care to one million people, should we do it?

Along the same lines, are doctors required​ to provide health care to an ill man if they find him. Does simply holding knowledge about something make someone obligated to act?

The opinion of people not affected by the project should not matter. As a praxeological matter, it is not likely that a small village would be able to withstand the onslaught of a well-funded community seeking to build a dam for electrical power, even in a private law society. This is because of the interaction between security and law - the well-funded community can afford to present a much bigger threat to the small community than vice-versa. The small community could likely be forced out.

What is different, however, is that it is very unlikely that the actions of the well-funded community would receive any sort of legal or other moral legitimacy. No free market arbitrator would be willing to whitewash the actions of the well-funded community forcing out the poor villagers. It would be a simple act of collectively-funded expropriation. This would make engaging in such behavior much more dangerous since the torts committed may be saleable. In this case, the villagers could sell their torts to a large corporation that specializes in suing aggressive communities that commit gross violations of justice in this manner.

So, I speculate this would be the kind of thing that would happen once and once only. Sure, the well-funded community gets their way, the villagers get forced out but then they sell their tort to a specialist who goes on to win a large award and the well-funded community ends up paying a lot more for their dam than they had anticipated. Would have been cheaper to just buy the land fair and square or find an alternative energy source. Future cities or governments considering forcing out poor people who stand in the way of major public works projects will then have to take into account future legal action that can be brought against them and modify their choices accordingly.

Clayton -

What difference does it make whether he was intending to shine a positive light or a disinfecting one? The point is he was pointing out the logical absurdity of the claim being made. “That’s like arguing” is a prefix for providing an analogous argument. What Daniel was doing was taking the logic used to make the first claim and applying it to another situation.

If I say: “obsene people should be shot.”

And someone replies: “What is ‘obsene’?”

And I said: “I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.”

It’s not “like arguing” I should be able to shoot whomever I decide…it is arguing I should be able to. That’s literally what the argument boils down to. Pointing out that fact is not “putting words in the speaker’s mouth.”

Whenever you use the phase “So you’re saying,” when it’s not what they’re saying, its misrepresentative of their position, regardless of intent.

Nobody ever asked Bomb, under what conditions he finds expropriation acceptable, so he is clearly not arguing that gangrape is acceptable simply because a majority of individuals benefit, and only a minority are harmed. It may be an analogous scenario beacause the justification is the same in both scenarios, but that was not his original argument.

Reductios do not begin with “so you are saying…”

Did you see the example above? “Reductio ad absurdum” literally translates to “reduction to the absurd”. You are literally reducing someone’s argument (and/or their justification for an argument) down to it’s bare logic and simply applying it to a specific case.

If you were talking to someone and he said “all people who go by the name ‘Stephen’ should be shot in the face.” (Granted, this doesn’t have to be reduced very far, as it can be seen absurd on it’s face, but we’ll go there just to make the point.) It would be nonsensical for you to say “that’s like saying I should be shot in the face.” No, that’s not “like” what he’s saying…he is saying you should be shot in the face. You along with anyone else who goes by that name. (I of course have to assume you’re not simply trying to claim it’s “not what he’s saying” because he literally didn’t utter those specific words.)

Now, if you wanted to make an analogous statement (i.e. one in which you could use your phrase “that’s like saying…”) you would reply with something like: “You think everyone who goes by a certain name should be shot? That’s like saying everyone who was born on a Tuesday should be shot. It’s completely arbitrary.”

Do you see the difference? With reductio you are reducing the argument—the content of the literal words the person actually stated—down to its logic, and simply applying that logic to a specific case (usually an absurd case), for the purpose of illustrating the fallacy in the logic…logic which was used to form an argument or the justification for an argument. You are quite literally taking the arument as it is stated and reducing it to its logical base…essentially getting at the root of what someone is actually saying (or at least providing an illustration of it).

In a “that’s like saying” situation, you are doing nothing of the sort. You are simply presenting an analogous argument to make a comment about the actual argument being made. In the above case, you weren’t trying to illustrate anything about the logic the person was using, or the implications of their statement. You were simply trying to make your own comment about the statement itself…namely, that it was arbitrary.

So for another example, suppose someone said: “We should raise taxes. Raising taxes always results in increased tax revenue.” A reductio ad absurdum might be: “So you’re saying if we increased the tax rate to 100% across the board, the revenue from taxes would be higher than it is now?”

Your response here would be: “No he didn’t say that. Why are you putting words in his mouth?”

But obviously no one put any words in his mouth. The first guy literally said “raising taxes always results in increased tax revenue”. All the second guy did was take that logic and apply it to a specific case…as, if what the first guy said is true, then a 100% tax rate should yield higher revenue. Your next response might be: “But that’s not what he meant! His argument was just that we should raise taxes! He didn’t say the rate should be 100%! You’re reducing it to absurdity!

Exactly.

So for another example, suppose someone said: “We should raise taxes. Raising taxes always results in increased tax revenue.” A reductio ad absurdum might be: “So you’re saying if we increased the tax rate to 100% across the board, the revenue from taxes would be higher than it is now?”

Your response here would be: “No he didn’t say that. Why are you putting words in his mouth?”

This is different because you’re taking his argument to its logical conclusions. The logic of your intentionally false argument is the same as the logic of his argument in this case.

In fact this is not a reductio, but a proof by contradiction.

How could it have been proof by contradiction if I was putting words in his mouth?

The response was to John James`example. Not your post.

Question: What in The Bomb19’s argument was I attacking?

That’s like saying “in fact this is not a plant, but a flower.” (see what I did there?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

I see. One is a form of the other.

I give up. You’re both right and I’m wrong.

[Edit] It still seems to me to be an unfair way to phrase it ("So you’re saying), but I can’t really give a good reason why it’s not a valid reductio.

It’s not something I would write in a doctoral thesis, but I find it fair in this thread.

Yeah…I was also referring to the way I used the opportunity to present another example of an actual “that’s like saying” situation.

Im late on this, and Im not saying that Bomb19 holds the above view, it may be a rhetorical proposition.

But that statement is important because it shows the concept of ‘fluid rights’ that all interventionists strive for. Once individual rights have been violated for the ‘good of society’, it just leads to ever more calls for intervention on behalf of some group or another, to maximize ‘social welfare’.

The tribe should never be moved if they do not want to go. Yes, many people will not experience the rise in standard of living, education and healthcare that could have occured. That is the luck of life. Note the presumption by Bomb19 that education, healthcare and living standards are ‘rights’. But these things are not ‘rights’, to be provided by society. They must be earned in the world of voluntary exchange with other human beings.

Back in the real world, the reason why the tribe did not voluntarily move is no doubt because the Brazilian government did not compensate them high enough.

Using the Bomb’s argument, we can dismantle all of capitalism anyway and return to the current state of affairs :stuck_out_tongue: