Proportionality & Restitution

Rothbard like to claim property rights as an absolute, but then he abandons the concept at will.

In For a New Liberty, he uses the term absolute with regards to property, but only in a willy-nilly way. He states that

“The rights of the individual are still absolute; but they are property rights.”

“The libertarian creed can now be summed up as (1) the absolute right of every man to the ownership of his own body; (a) the equally absolute right to own and therefore to control the material resources he has found and transformed; and (3) therefore, the absolute right to exchange or give away the ownership to such titles to whoever is willing to exchange or receive them.”

Rothbard easily abandons this absolute rights principle when he adopts the principle of proportionality. For example, Rothbard would hold that someone cannot shoot someone for trespassing onto their land since the punishment would not fit the crime, yet, this, by definition limits the rights to ones property. I would think that only through binding contract could such an absolute right be waved, not by some default err on the side of proportionality.

Why not simply accept proprty as truly absolute?

“this, by definition limits the rights to ones property.”

No it doesn’t.

Au contraire, it is you - who is ignoring the other individuals right to their property (life).

Have you even read this?


We have advanced the view that the criminal loses his rights to the extent that he deprives another of his rights: the theory of “proportionality.” We must now elaborate further on what such a theory of proportional punishment may imply.

You are conflating punishment and defence.

You can not shoot trespassers as punishment. You can however potentially shoot them in defence (of your property).

There is no upper limit to force that can be used in defence of rights, lethal force can be permissable to defend against a minor crime, if it is the minimum amount of force it will take to succesfully defend.

I subscribe to the notion that there are two main errors in libertarian logic that allows for the infinite holes/thought-experiments/what-if-cases within our philosophy: The refusal to accept absolute property rights and the acceptance of implicit contracting (the second is a subset of the first).

I can think of no transgression that doesn’t fall within the realms of trespassing or theft (and I’m not sure a distinction can be made between them). Therefore, we have only degrees if transgression and the theory of proportionality is a great solution to dealing with degrees of transgressions, but it is only a possible solution—not a binding theory a priori.

I would hold the belief that a right to life is no greater then any other right to property, since life is but property. To hold that life is above property (even if property derives from life) is to hold the view that someone has a positive obligation to someone else.

If I own my land absolutely and you trespass onto my land, we have a conflict of property. Your property (your body) is now taking up volume within my property (my land). To then claim a law of proportionality is to say that your life has precedence over my land which cannot be true if I have absolute rights to my property.

What libertarians want is conditional (relative) rights to property, although their conditions are smaller then most political philosophy.

So yes, a destroyed turnip in exchange for murder is sad. But, so is the a priori theory that I am limited to how I can respond to trespassers destroying my turnips. I would think that nearly all arbitration companies would suspend such lethal force under such small situations, but the property owner must at least be given the decision to sign away such absolute rights (it shouldn’t be an ultimate given that property rights comes with a preset right to proportionality of restitution)

Yes, thats what ive also been trying to say! Pacifism - Only political system compatible with AE

But a lot of people here are blinded by their ideology, and unfortunately to the same degree as statists they so condemn.

I have argued this way myself in the past https://forum.freecapitalists.org/t/re-brainpolices-statements-in-you-are-free-to-leave/4056/70

Proportionality itself is subjective, due to no interpersonal value comparisons being possible, it requires an arbitrary value judgement

Can one own land absolutely or does one just hold a temporary absolute right to use land?

Are people free to travel across land provided they do not damage any property?

Do people who presently own or use land have an obligation to post signage at property boundries that ought not be trespassed?

The Right to Self Defense - MNR

Thus, it is not the business of law – properly the rules and instrumentalities by which person and property are violently defended – to make people moral by use of legal violence. It is not the proper business of law to make people be truthful or to keep their promises. It is the business of legal violence to defend persons and their property from violent attack, from molestation or appropriation of their property without their consent. To say more – to say, for example, that mere promises are properly enforceable – is to make an unwarranted fetish of “contracts” while forgetting why some of them are enforceable: in defense of the just rights of property.

Violent defense then must be confined to violent invasion – either actually, implicitly, or by direct and overt threat. But given this principle, how far does the right of violent defense go? For one thing, it would clearly be grotesque and criminally invasive to shoot a man across the street because his angry look seemed to you to portend an invasion. The danger must be immediate and overt, we might say, “clear and present” – a criterion that properly applies not to restrictions on freedom of speech (never permissible, if we regard such freedom as a subset of the rights of person and property) but to the right to take coercive action against a supposedly imminent invader.[3]

Secondly, we may ask: must we go along with those libertarians who claim that a storekeeper has the right to kill a lad as punishment for snatching a piece of his bubblegum? What we might call the “maximalist” position goes as follows: by stealing the bubblegum, the urchin puts himself outside the law. He demonstrates by his action that he does not hold or respect the correct theory of property rights. Therefore, he loses all of his rights, and the storekeeper is within his rights to kill the lad in retaliation.[4]

I propose that this position suffers from a grotesque lack of proportion. By concentrating on the storekeeper’s right to his bubblegum, it totally ignores another highly precious property-right: every man’s – including the urchin’s – right of self-ownership. On what basis must we hold that a minuscule invasion of another’s property lays one forfeit to the total loss of one’s own?

I propose another fundamental rule regarding crime: the criminal, or invader, loses his own right to the extent that he has deprived another man of his. If a man deprives another man of some of his self-ownership or its extension in physical property, to that extent does he lose his own rights.[5] From this principle immediately derives the proportionality theory of punishment – best summed up in the old adage: “let the punishment fit the crime.”[6]

We conclude that the shopkeeper’s shooting of the erring lad went beyond this proportionate loss of rights, to wounding or killing the criminal; this going beyond is in itself an invasion of the property right in his own person of the bubblegum thief. In fact, the storekeeper has become a far greater criminal than the thief, for he has killed or wounded his victim – a far graver invasion of another’s rights than the original shoplifting.

[3] This requirement recalls the scholastic doctrine of the double effect. See G.E.M. Anscombe, “The Two Kinds of Error in Action,” Journal of Philosophy 60 (1963): 393401; Philippa R. Foot, Virtues and Vices (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1978), pp. 19–25.

[4] On the maximalist view, furthermore, socialists, interventionists and utilitarians would, by virtue of their views, be liable to execution. I am indebted to Dr. David Gordon for this point.

[5] The great libertarian Auberon Herbert, in Auberon Herbert and J.H. Levy, Taxation and Anarchism (London: Personal Rights Association, 1912), p. 38, put it this way:

Am I right in saying that a man has forfeited his own rights (to the extent of the aggression he has committed) in attacking the rights of others? … It may be very difficult to translate into concrete terms the amount of aggression, and of resulting restraint; but all just law seems to be the effort to do this. We punish a man in a certain way if he has inflicted an injury which lays me up for a day; in another way if he takes my life…. There is generally underlying it [the law] the view (which is, I think, true) that the punishment or redress – both in civil and criminal matters – should be measured by the amount of aggression; in other words that the aggressor – after a rough fashion – loses as much liberty as that of which he has deprived others.

[6] For a development of this theory of punishment, see the section “Punishment and Proportionality,” pp. 85–96 below.

So your position is.. if a person steals a pencil, the property owner of the pencil is within his rights to execute them?

But by all means, if you’re having a tear about it, go read Kinsella on Estoppel Approach.

@ Conza

I will read the Kinsella article.

I believe in absolute rights to property, if i must carry this belief to a pencil or bubble gum killer then i will accept it as such. It is only consistant. Yet, i believe the market would eliminate these extreme scenarios.

This is an excerpt from an unpolished essay i wrote The Implict Contract: An Amoral Animal , in it i defend the right to charge 1 million dollars for a cup of coffee if not explictly contracted not to do so, but the bubble gum, pencil killer could be substituded in the analogy.

The remedy is thus intrinsically built into the market for contracting. For example, imagine the creation of an all-encompassing agreement on prices paid for services received, derived from previous contract law. This type of all-encompassing agreement may be designed by two merging insurance companies, one for the consumer and one for the producer. Let this fictional firm operate under the name “TRUST”. The purpose of such a company is to generate a trust between two parties based on explicit agreements of terms prior to the exchange of goods or services. In addition to generating trust, we can imagine this same company insuring from future loopholes by insurance. If a loophole were thus to be found between two contracting parties, which ended in large settlements or losses due to contract deviation, the insurance company, TRUST, would thus be liable for damages to either party. Therefore, we can see how an objection from the standpoint of time consumption may be remedied.

If your argument were something to the nature of, after drinking a cup of coffee the owner claims that it will now cost you one million dollars. Thus what is the market policy for such exploitation? Well, if we were dealing with an implicit contract we would thus outsource a decision to a third party who would decide a “true market value” for coffee. These individuals may factor in many variables such as normal market prices, substitutes, any additional complements, etc. We would thus retreat into a realm of arbitrariness in which there is no true ownership. Yet, who possesses the authority to decide the valuation one places on their property except the owner of that property? Who is to say how much one can value a cup of coffee (maybe someone famous owned that coffeemaker, or that cup, etc), and who has the authority to determine price except the owner of that property? Consequently, I can see no other characterization of an implicit contract than that of property violation.

Now, returning to our image of a firm (TRUST) that provides insurance against such exploitation, and assuring loyalty between the contracting parties, the new question that surfaces is whether these two individuals are participants of this firm. If they are, then these terms should be determined. The clause may simply state that in a willing two-party transaction, one may not sue for above three times the market price of the product transferred–thus, more than three times a market price of a cup of coffee. The language used here is of course completely arbitrary. It serves only as an example, not as anything remotely concrete. Yet its purpose is to signal how the problem may be approached, especially how it may be approached when a firm like TRUST is liable to any mistakes within the contracting. Therefore, let’s paint a possible picture of how a transaction may occur without implicit contracting.

  • Individual A desires a cup of coffee
  • Individual B owns a coffee shop
  • Individual A notices a sign, “Operating Member of ‘TRUST’ and thus feels safe with entering the shop
  • Individual B must show identification that he is a member of ‘TRUST’ to secure the sale of coffee
  • Individual A believes he is safe from exploitation and buys the coffee
  • Individual B worries that he could be sued by individual A for something (like making him sick), thus individual B takes out added insurance from ‘TRUST’ that protects him from lawsuits of such.

Again, the picture is to serve as an example only. It shows only that a market for such a system of insurance exists when terms must be fully defined, and when there is demand, there is supply. In fact, we have some examples in existence under our current rule of law. For example, and I wish I had a more popular example, the FDIC operates as a trust mechanism (though its validity is near comical).

Yet isn’t there also a market for frivolous lawsuits? Won’t demand for million dollar coffees create its own supply? It is, of course, accurate that a fraction of the population will always engage in this form of exploitation. Yet given the nature of our social species, the majority of the population will desire engaging in mutually beneficial forms of supply and demand. Thus, if an individual were to happen to gain a large settlement by way of frivolous lawsuit, there would hence be a demand to protect oneself from such individuals. Thus, one can imagine a blacklist of sorts surfacing for such individuals, in which companies of certain circles oust these individuals from future transactions. Therefore, there is a price to pay for such endeavors the same way there is a “possible” gain to reap. So, one must decide before he enters into such a lawsuit, what the chances of winning are. He must decide because if he doesn’t win, he may be blacklisted from many suppliers, and if he does win, he may reap large profits but not have the ability to purchase from suppliers who see him as a risk. Thus, only specialized individuals would know the answer to such questions as the probability of winning a lawsuit, therefore eliminating the possibility of a large portion of the population specializing in such frivolousness[1]. Yet, of course, ultimate demand will be for suitable exchanges, or those of mutual benefit, not fraud. Therefore more credence will be given to the study of properly defining variables within contracts versus finding loopholes within the variables. This may seem odd given the Buchananite philosophy of interest groups and the asymmetry of demands. However, just because there is case-by-case asymmetry in favor of small groups (meaning small groups have a stronger incentive to find loopholes), it does not mean that the market will be moving in this direction and not that of mutual benefit. In fact, if each case serves as a precedent upon how we must modify our future contracts, then this type of behavior is self-terminating, and previous contract mistakes will be corrected. Therefore, the market acts as a vehicle in the direction of mutual beneficial transactions once the market is freed from the animal of implicit contracts.


[1]Indeed, we can imagine a market for firms that hunt down frivolous million-dollar-coffee-cup individuals, setting traps for them and then paying back their victims with proceeds.

Keep in mind, again, that we’re talking about restitution, not self-defense (which, as Marko said, permits the minimum amount of force necessary).

The proportionality restriction on punishment only limits the victim’s property rights if we begin with the assumption that aggression causes the aggressor to forfeit all their property to the victim. If my stealing your turnip transfers to you my “property” right to life, then it would indeed be a limitation on your rights to insist on proportional punishment only. However, we can easily make the opposite statement: If my stealing your turnip transfers to you my rights only in propertion to the offense, then it would be a limitation on my rights to insist on execution.

Furthermore, how do you justify punishment (or, for that matter, property rights in the first place), if not by estoppel or something similar?

I’m actually quite surprised that you would believe that – perhaps I’ve misunderstood what you’re saying? First of all, what’s an example where the acceptance of implicit contracts leads to an unappealing conclusion? [EDIT: you ninja’d my post, but more examples would still help.] Second, do you really think that people have to explicitly state all the agreements to which they are party?

Consider some simple real-world examples:

  • You know to use your lawnmower during the daytime, not at night, because of an implicit understanding with your neighbors that less noise is acceptable during the night than the day.
  • You accept a free food sample from a vendor (notice the absence of consideration) and legitimately expect that it will not be poisoned, because this expectation is implicitly the pretext of your interaction.
  • You lend money to someone whose company name says “LLC,” implicitly forfeiting the right to go after the shareholders’ assets for repayment.

Of course, any of these contracts can be overridden by explicit agreement. But if everyone had to explicitly state all their contracts all the time, they would scarcely have time to live their lives.

In short: although the judgement of proportionality is to some extent arbitrary, an aggressor cannot use this as an objection to punishment without creating a license to do anything to them with impunity.

as a disclaimer, my opinions are only leaning this way, I still have a lot to learn

I’m not sure about this converse. There is a difference between trespassing and claiming that you cannot shoot me, or trespassing and claiming that you must shoot me. The second positive obligation is in addition to the trespassing. By forfeiting your rights to life means that you have forfeited your decision making processes. It is not your decision anymore.

“Furthermore, how do you justify punishment?”

If property rights are absolute, then there is no justification. All action within the bounds of your property is justifiable.

I don’t think that people should have to explicitly contract with each other, only that explicit contracting is the only legitimate form of contract. A father and son may engage in exchange on implicit assumptions, but such implicit contracts should carry no weight in arbitration unless the arbitration company specifies that implicit contracts carry weight, yet, even here the individual must explicitly contract with a arbitration company. An example (from my essay)

1) While in midflight, an airplane pilot tells one of his passengers to leave his plane. His reasoning is only that he is the rightful owner of this property and the passenger is trespassing.

Now, under the absurdity of an implicit contract, the pilot is removed of this right. It is assumed that by boarding the plane, one must have the ability to depart from the plane via its grounding. To be more straightforward, the implicit contract is stating that the pilot is not the complete owner of his property until the plane is landed; a partial owner of some portion of the plane is the customer by way of implicit contract. Ridiculous! This is nothing other than a form of theft masked by some supposition of morality. After all, if the plane was grounded, and the pilot asked the passenger to leave, there would be no issue. There is nothing implicitly contracted about a grounded plane, so why is there something implicitly assumed about a plane in midair? Likewise, on the opposite end of the spectrum, if the passenger wanted to leave the plane and the pilot wouldn’t let him until he reached a designated mark, would the implicit contract still stand? Of course not; it would be considered kidnapping. Furthermore, it could also be considered kidnapping if the pilot were to keep the plane in mid-flight for an indefinite period of time, not allowing the plane to land, or if the plane traveled at a particularly snail pace so as to delay departure. Thus, there is an obvious inherent bias toward the producer in scenarios as such. Now, it is of course true that the passenger obviously paid for a flight to a specific location from a specific location. Yet this is no different then a cab driver evicting a passenger prior to his destination except that compensation must be refunded versus not being collected. Since there are no explicit terms, there is no contract—only a promise, and promises are not law-binding.

Maybe this seems ridiculous, after all, why are we debating such a nonsensical issue as just mentioned? The answer is simply to define property. We cannot hope to build a society of property rights if we haven’t the ability to define property—or worse, define it based on arbitrary means. Therefore, I will continue with this “silly” scenario because it is complicated enough to prove how implicit contracts violate rights to property (however, you may replace this situation with something much simpler, such as the cup of coffee example).

How can we remedy this situation? We return to our fictional firm TRUST. Firm TRUST knows that such actions as taken by the pilot are expensive; expensive in terms of loss of future marketability to the pilot and expensive if the passenger is insured against such atrocities. Thus the firm TRUST will forbid such a transaction to occur legally by creating an explicit contract stating as such. If the action still occurs, which means the pilot would be willingly committing monetary suicide in terms of selling his services to future passengers, he would also be held accountable to murder. The market without implicit contracts still allows exchanges to take place, but without implied arbitrariness and legal violations to property rights.

  • You know to use your lawnmower during the daytime, not at night, because of an implicit understanding with your neighbors that less noise is acceptable during the night than the day.

This is an implicit curtsey that would probably not be broken for fear of neighborhood ramifications (like mowing while your were sleeping, etc)

  • You accept a free food sample from a vendor (notice the absence of consideration) and legitimately expect that it will not be poisoned, because this expectation is implicitly the pretext of your interaction.
  • You lend money to someone whose company name says “LLC,” implicitly forfeiting the right to go after the shareholders’ assets for repayment.

For these two examples I would ask that you revisit my TRUST company example in which an arbitration and an insurance company for a market solution

Of course, any of these contracts can be overridden by explicit agreement. But if everyone had to explicitly state all their contracts all the time, they would scarcely have time to live their lives.

I would hold that such loopholes would quickly be mended via past precedents, market incentives, blacklisting, group shunning, and other voluntary ramifications for such frivolous transactions. I could imagine a company dedicated to re-punishing those who took advantage of the implicit contract loopholes by finding their implicit contract loopholes.

Wouldn’t it make more sense to just not accept property as an absolute?

"@ Conza

I will read the Kinsella article."

I await the response.

I think there is no a priori theory of justifiable violence. Only a market of competing courts can produce meaningful natural law. As guides, we can use reason, history and the principles of natural law to the extent they have been adopted wherever the law has been less monopolized. But I think Jeremiah D’s scenario (shooting the trespasser on sight or, what is the same, executing the child for stealing bubble-gum) shows that absolute propertarianism breaks down in the limit. The principle of non-agression and propertarianism are good first-order approximations of natural law* but I reject the assertion that these are the sum of justice. The law - in this specific case, justifiable violence - cannot be known through any a priori argument, only through a process of trial and error in the marketplace of human interactions. Justifiable violence in a natural order law society would consist of exactly that violence which any court would recognize as legitimate, justifiable. I assert that, in the absence of such a market, we do not and cannot know exactly what violence is justifiable and what violence is not. We can sketch rough outlines and give arguments for why we think a natural order law society would conform to this or that pattern of law.

Clayton -

*By “natural law” I do not mean Thomist or Rothbardian or Hoppean a priorist natural law, I mean law as it emerges in a marketplace of competing law courts or a “natural order law society”

@Angurse: I think the trouble is that modern law has failed to incorporate a rigorous theory of property into its foundations. This has eroded property rights which are human rights. Hoppe begins most of his online articles with Robinson Crusoe alone in a state of paradise. He then introduces scarcity and another human, Friday, to illustrate the conditions for conflict, namely, scarcity and the presence of another human. Hoppe admits that scarcity in the use of one’s body and in standing room would be present even in the Garden of Eden. This is an important point because the only condition for conflict to be possible is the presence of another human, Friday. Even if Crusoe and Friday were in the Garden of Eden, conflict would be possible since Friday could attempt to abuse Crusoe or Crusoe could attempt to displace Friday from the place in which he is currently standing. A theory of property is crucial in defining conflicts… what is the conflict?

The example I like to use is the cheating wife. A husband comes home and finds his wife cheating. He proceeds to beat up the man she was cheating with. The man who got beat up then sues. Propertarianism says that the only tort was by the cheated husband against the illicit lover - if the cheated man were to have sued the illicit lover instead of beating him up, there would be no case since at no point was there a property conflict between the men (unless you want to say that a woman is property… good luck with that ;-)). Yet through most of human history - even in customary law systems - it has been recognized as a tort to sleep with another man’s wife. This tells me that propertarianism breaks down at some point in describing human legal norms.

To sum up - a theory of property is necessary but not sufficient for good law, so propertarians are right to stress the importance of property rights and the failure of modern legal systems to have a robust theory of property but they are wrong to assert that property rights are the sum of the law.

Clayton -

What I mean is, what reason do you have for supporting the libertarian notion of property rights, as opposed to, say, the socialist notion? Within the Hoppe/Kinsella framework, the law of proportional punishment comes as an integral part of this reasoning.

I’m not sure if implicit vs. explicit contracts is really the issue here, so don’t let it distract you from the main discussion. But if you want to discuss this, let me ask: what if the pilot and passenger stated in explicit terms beforehand

Are such agreements enforceable?

This is what I used to think, because I thought that if the laws we are to follow are anything less than fully explicit, then our rights are called into question, the whole thing becomes a mess of subjectivity, and our freedom will be “interpreted” away in the same way as the Constitution is “interpreted” into oblivion. Better to be safe and insist on rock-solid objectivity. I even went so far as to think that all contracts should be written in a language specially constructed to be completely unambiguous.

But here’s the problem with such a position: spoken (and written) language is merely one of many forms of communicative behavior. There is no legally (/ethically/morally/whathaveyou) relevant difference between verbal (“explicit”) and non-verbal (“implicit”) communication; they differ only in their degree of precision.

Suppose you heard two people talking:

I then ask you: How much money does Kim owe Park? If you don’t know Korean, then no amount of staring at it will tell you the answer. (If you do know Korean, bear with me, it’s just an example.) This is because the understanding of language is itself an implicit understanding. At some point, your understanding of language is derived from some non-verbal means of communication – or else, we would have been caught in an endless circle of verbal definitions.

You might think of implicit contracts as “the language of action.” In the free food sample example, the information communicated by the vendor’s actions is “the food is not poisoned,” just as the information communicated by people pronouncing the above syllables is “Kim owes Park ₩10000.” To say that the latter is a valid contract, but the former is not, is to posit some mysterious “meaning-essence” unique to language. Of course, customs and implicit understandings will differ from place to place, but this no more impairs property rights than the fact that people speak different languages.

I agree that where custom is ambiguous, people will often find it in their interests to explicitly state things, perhaps by subscribing to a DRO that has an explicit legal code or an extensive record of precedent. However, I ask you to put yourself in the position of a judge or jury and imagine that a dispute has been brought to you by two people who have no prior relationship and are not members of any such agencies. On what basis do you make a decision? You might object that this isn’t going to happen often, but unless you have an answer, rights are not “natural” at all, but contingent upon going through the ritual of signing an 8,000-page tome describing in minute detail laws to cover every situation you might find yourself in. (Check out the Talmud to get an idea of why people don’t like doing this.)

If your concern is that allowing implicit contracts will erode property rights, then this convoluted institutional arrangement only pushes the problem back a step. The question then becomes “When should we impose the penalty of blacklisting/shunning/loophole-finding etc.?” You’ve already stipulated that they will have no explicit basis on which to make this decision (since the explicit cases would be handled by the legal system proper).

@original post,

Libertarianism only looks at observable actions, and brings about its own sort of value judgement on it. Punishment and defense are in certain situations indistinguishable from a third party pov (legal system), as you’re implying.

I however subscribe to the idea that, no matter how much mankind loves absolutes, there are no absolutes. The laws of logic break down when you hit a logical paradox (in order to remain consistent you arrive at an absurd conclusion) like the laws of physics break down when you get sucked into a black hole (infinite everything, aka infinity)

“no matter how much mankind loves absolutes, there are no absolutes.”

What’s hilarious is your inability to see the most obvious of logical contradictions here.

Want to have another try? lol