QUESTIONS FOR LIBERTARIANS

Hello all,

I’ve read books by Hayek and Mises from cover to cover and underlined the parts I liked best (there were many), but honestly, there are many aspects of right-wing libertarianism which frankly baffle me. It’s not so much that I agree or disagree, it’s that I’m not sure I understand the argument, or if there is an argument. One aspect which particularly baffles me is the hard-line position that the government has basically no legitimate role in the marketplace.

To keep it in the real world, how would this position apply to the current problems faced by the citizens of Juarez, Mexico, which is currently one of the worst places to live in the world. Now, I fully agree and then some that the current problems in Juarez are caused by the Mexican and U.S. governments, especially as they related to drug policy. I am in full agreement that we have a right to take the drugs we want, and that drug prohibition is serious overreach by any government and only contributes to gangster-ism and dangerous products.

But let’s consider the hard-line position, that the Mexican government should not legalize and regulate the sale of drugs, but leave the marketplace altogether, or even cede power and disappear. Let’s imagine also that all but one major gang also become convinced that they would be better off competing non-coercively in a free market. Would not the one remaining gang have a significant advantage over all of the others, by using its soldiers to take over the businesses of rivals by force?

Let’s say then that the rival drug gangs are not so naive, and form a mutual defense pact against outside aggression. Such a defense pact would have to have some kind of arbitration abilities to resolve conflicts between member gangs or it would be likely to fracture over internecine disputes. The arbitration process would have to have agreed upon rules and penalties for those who flout them in their business practices. If it had an armed force, a set of rules and an arbitration process, it would basically be a new pseudo-mini government, with executive, legislative and judicial functions. It would probably be safe from the rouge gang, but only by forming a kind of government. And if this were to happen, and let’s say that the new drug cartel’s pseudo government was better organized and better armed then other defense pacts in the economy, how would libertarians propose to deal with it if it turned from a defense pact into an offense pact? I’m not sure I believe that there can be a power vacuum, and I do believe that the human nature of some people is to attempt to establish coercive power over others. I personally think the solution to this conundrum is decentralized directly democratic government, but I’d welcome an explanation of an alternative approach.

Let’s take a second example, Which is Carlos Slim, who is by some estimates the richest man in the world, and certainly is in Mexico. He’s claimed to own $50 billion in assets, compared to a Mexican GDP of only $1 trillion. Let’s assume that Mr. Slim is a good man an acquired this fortune only through free exchange, but that his heir is another story. Now let’s imagine again that the Mexican government shrinks down to a tiny size and steps out of the market completely, and Mr. Slim’s heir, Slim the Second inherits the Slim fortune. It seems to me at least that if any talented individual has direct control over a full 5% of a nation’s economy, it would be an easy game for that individual to either take significant control over an existing government and use it to his economic advantage, or to simply use his fortune to establish a new government. How many young Mexican thugs could $50,000,000,000 hire, train and arm? All of them?

It seems to me that the free market is efficient in producing goods and services partly because it creates unequal outcomes. Efficient producers are rewarded and inefficient ones are not. It also seems to me that if this inequality of outcomes becomes too severe or if wealth becomes too concentrated, then it becomes almost inevitable that eventually a coalition of the wealthy will attempt to use their fortunes to limit competition against them, either by influencing an existing government or by simply buying a new one under their control into existence.

What would the libertarian response be to this? Would a truly free market have any defense mechanisms against an extreme concentration of wealth, or the use of concentrated wealth to purchase market coercion? How could it be sustainable for more than a short period if not? How wide is the range of libertarian opinion on this, and are there any works which cogently lay out the hard-line libertarian position in regards to this issues?

How many politicians can $50,000,000,000 bribe?

Most anarcho-capitalists (which Mises and Hayek are not) propose Personal Defense Agencies as the solution to this problem.

I recommend reading Roderick Long’s “Market Anarchism as Constitutionalism.”

“right-wing libertarianism”

Oh, you’re gonna have to explain that one. Liberty is not left or right.

“Let’s imagine also that all but one major gang also become convinced that they would be better off competing non-coercively in a free market. Would not the one remaining gang have a significant advantage over all of the others, by using its soldiers to take over the businesses of rivals by force?”

OK, so using force against innocent people is not allowed. If we are talking minarchism, then the government prevents this. If we are talking anarcho-capitalism, then businesses that protect people’s right get involved here.

“Would not the one remaining gang have a significant advantage over all of the others, by using its soldiers to take over the businesses of rivals by force?”

Kinda sounds a lot like government…

“It seems to me at least that if any talented individual has direct control over a full 5% of a nation’s economy, it would be an easy game for that individual to either take significant control over an existing government and use it to his economic advantage”

Alright, you just made the libertarian argument that the central planners of government should not have control over 5% of a nations economy, because their incentives are not aligned with the public. This is pure public-choice stuff.

“It also seems to me that if this inequality of outcomes becomes too severe or if wealth becomes too concentrated, then it becomes almost inevitable that eventually a coalition of the wealthy will attempt to use their fortunes to limit competition against them, either by influencing an existing government or by simply buying a new one under their control into existence.”

Big government creates a lot of economic inequality - beyond what is natural - by everything from public housing, drug policy, government schools, intellectual property, occupational licensing, welfare programs, government pensions, military industrial complex, high taxes and regulations blocking out competition, etc.

The free market would have some inequality, but perhaps not as much as there is now. And everybody would be ahead. A rising tide lifts all boats.

“becomes almost inevitable that eventually a coalition of the wealthy will attempt to use their fortunes to limit competition against them, either by influencing an existing government or by simply buying a new one under their control into existence.”

All the more reason to limit government so these evil people cannot use it as a tool. Make them gain money by having to deal voluntarily with people in the marketplace.

How are libertarians who believe in a free society right-wingers?

How does this gang finance itself? The gangs that retired from criminal activity and started to provide services by voluntary means would have to provide services that are in demand in order to collect their revenues, but how will the criminal gang finance itself? You must further elaborate on this issue so that your concern can be specifically addressed.

The thing I don’t understand about that argument is, if I’m paying someone to protect me, what protection does that afford me against anyone who can pay them more? And will those people really be willing to risk death in my defense if their main motivation is money? Whatever else you want to say about them, state forces are often motivated in part by tribal loyalty and certainly have been willing to die voluntarily in what they perceive as defense of their community, while mercenaries (for profit defense agencies) have a very poor record of even not fleeing when an actual conflict starts.

Also, to stay with Mexico, that country only spends 0.5% of its GDP on the military. If Mexico became totally free-market and that 0.5% of the economy went to PDAs instead of the state military, it would be within the realm of possibility that Carlos Slim could buy up the entire sector! Wouldn’t that make him the head of a defacto absolute monarchy, but how would libertarians object to this turn of events, since he could do it through free exchange?

To quote Machiavelli:

“Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy. The fact is, they have no other attraction or reason for keeping the field than a trifle of stipend, which is not sufficient to make them willing to die for you. They are ready enough to be your soldiers whilst you do not make war, but if war comes they take themselves off or run from the foe; which I should have little trouble to prove, for the ruin of Italy has been caused by nothing else than by resting all her hopes for many years on mercenaries, and although they formerly made some display and appeared valiant amongst themselves, yet when the foreigners came they showed what they were.”

I would define ‘libertarian’ as a society based as largely as possible on free association, and right-wing libertarianism as libertarianism which puts a heavy emphasis on private property rights.

It’s not the only kind of libertarianism; certainly many American Indian tribes believed in liberty but not put much emphasis on property titles, and the same could be said about groups on the left like the I.W.W., or groups like the Amish or the kibbutzim which have communal economies but on a basis of free association.

Sounds just like a government. A government is just a gang. Governments can only commit extortion (taxation) as long as the majority of the population endorses it. If the population stopped endorsing extortion, another gang could not rise up in the place of the previous gang.

Defense agencies that do not provide the services that they are committed to would loose customers to agencies that did. The above scenario only makes sense in the context of bribes. Yes, you could bribe a police officer for example so he doesn’t perform his duty, but the problem of such conduct is far worse for the government run police. The government run police department is a coercive monopoly that extracts is revenue by coercion. Profits & loss are of no importance. Compare that to a private defense agency that must have all of its actions approved by its customers and also faces constant competition.

Which system is more likely to curb such corrupted behavior?

Private defense agencies in a free market are not Machiavellian mercenaries. No way! Machiavellian is talking about a completely different thing.

I’ll grant you this assumption of loyalty only for the sake of argument.

Why does such loyalty disappear the moment the policeman works for an agency that must actually earn its revenue as oppose to resorting to extortion?

Why must loyalty seize the moment there is competition and monetary calculation allows for efficient use of its resources for the benefit of its customers?

Do you understand the profit incentive?

Benjamin, I enjoyed every word of your well thought out post.

I don’t know the answer, and await enlightenment from the other posters.

Change the product from defense to anything else, say shoes, and see how the post is full of Marxist fallacies.

I think the whole idea of PDAs is laughable. Just like slavery pretty much disappeared pretty quickly once people understood that it is wrong to own another human being, governments will disappear pretty quickly once people recognize that taxation is extortion and therefore wrong. Even before all the governments disappear, why would a government want to attack a bunch of individuals, almost all of whom are sure to be armed?

I tried, and couldn’t do it. Could you be more specific, please?

Can you please tell me the difference?

OK allow to me to comment some more on the OP’s original post:

I am assuming the OP is not saying that having a gov’t is a good thing. And if he is, then let’s change the subject and talk about my opinion. I don’t think it’s a good thing.

But the original post was not a presentation of problems with the hidden implication that we need a gov’t after all to solve them for us.

Rather it is saying that we are living in the middle of a Greek tragedy, where the fatal personality flaw of the hero [human beings in our case] leads inevitably to disaster.

The flaw the OP mentions in the first story of the drug gangs is that some people like using violence to get money. They will have to be defended against, and if the defending agency wins, it will then feel the unstoppable urge to use violence to get money. Because if a person or group has unstoppable power, they will use it. [Lord Acton]. There are no real world Clark Kents who use their Superman powers only for good. I am not sure how the other posters replied adequately to this. Please spell it out.

The second story of Mr Slim is about about another human flaw. People like to use their money to get power. If someone is rich enough and smart enough , what is to stop him from being cruel enough to start a private army for the purpose of seizing power? He could also legitimize it and hide it by calling it a govt. Here too, I don’t know the answer. Please enlighten me.

On the note of Carlos Slim, you can’t equate personal wealth with GDP. To use accounting terminology, whereas wealth is a stock, GDP is a flow. A more appropriate comparison would be Slim’s yearly profits with GDP, or his personal wealth with the total wealth of society.

then you have a gov’t. you answered your own question

I dont understand your post, wilderness. Are you saying that it is indeed inevitable? And if it isn’t, please explain why not.

after governments disappear, there will still be a demand for security services, it would make sense for firms who were good at providing this service to do so at a price to others who could not do it themselves; division of labour and all that.

how do you suppose people will protect themselves and/or resolve disputes in a free society?

I wasn’t saying it was inevitable. I mean you gave a story about a guy and then said he made gov’t.

All of this is logically contingent. It’s purely hypothetical to say what’s going to happen in the future. One can base their ideas on logic and then go toe-to-toe in an argument. But the emotional fallacy endeavors to appeal to the fallible nature of being human. It’s not based on anything factual or solid unless somebody is trying to manipulate the fallible hearts that each human has. But this is really nothing (the ‘what if’ scenario by the OP) but an appeal to fear and that potentially is more the danger than anything else.