Questions on the "Robber Barons".

One of my facebook friends likes to post notes on a verity of subjects, one just happened to be about the “Myth of the Robber Barons” (was for, not against), which was pretty darn cool, stuff some or most of you would be familiar wiith. One of his facebook friends posted a response to it. How much truth is there to this? I don’t have much history knowledge locked away in my head.

This is in regards to such people as J.J. Hill, Rockefeller, and Vanderbilt, etc etc.

Afterwards, I asked this:

And then he responded with:

What do you all think?

http://mises.org/media/1164

More Robert LeFerve tapes here.

Destroy the myth of worker exploitation and the rest of his argument falls apart.

He’s right only on the small point some of the “market capitalists” did use the government when it suited them, but as for worker exploitation he is completely dead in the water. If you can’t exploit someone without their consent, it’s not exploitation.

Alright.. but doesn’t this completely ignore the fact that someone like Rockefeller hired a PDA to attack his own workers for going on strike? And actually killing people in the process? I understand Hill was not willing to hire a PDA, and when his plea for government soldiers wasn’t met, he had to settle his own dispute in negotiations.

Don’t apologize for the robber barons. Just assume they act the way everyone says they act. You can still win theoretically.

Capitalism in America was messed up because of the oversupply of labor. There were tons of immigrants coming from all over the world because their own countries were worse. So flood the market with supply, and you get low prices for labor.

There would have never been an oversupply of workers if other countries had been capitalist. You need more free markets, not less. Imagine if there were only one capitalist and everyone else were living in feudal slavery. Well everyone wants to go work for the capitalist so they compete till the wage they get is just barely better than feudal life. Now imagine if everyone could be a capitalist… suddenly there is also competition between employers which raises working conditions for laborers.

The exploitation theory of wages is unable to explain why anyone ever gets paid more than minimum wage. Derp.

And in spite of the oversupply of labor, you can’t force anyone to move to America and work for dirt. This was still an improvement over all the alternatives people had going for them. It provided growing wealth for the common man like the world has never seen before. So what if you can point out a couple of anecdotes about workers getting abused? It is shameful and lamentable, but is it statistically significant? Nope. 1830 onwards: wages up productivity up health up working week down.

And what if we did this again. What if we let all immigrants come to America because their own countries are too messed up to be capitalist? Half a billion would flock to America, and they would live in poverty working their butts off for a couple of generations. But they would choose to come here because the alternative is even worse.

But no, all our socialist utopias have closed borders for fear that foreigners would dilute our wealth. Ironically, I think the free market comes over as more compassionate.

On a more technical note, you need to press that you’re not opposed to central planning but coerced central planning. If socialism is the way to go you can make socialist communes voluntary. Go be Amish if you want. People have the choice between voluntary socialism and voluntary capitalism. People tend to choose a mix of both (see old fraternal societies).

And even if capitalism were this bad, the state could never be better. Sure it is physically possible for the government not to be corrupt. But whether the government is controlled by elites or by a majority, there can be no check on their power because they are judge in their own case. Government power is only limited by self restraint. No one would ever agree to a contract like this in real life. I would rather sign a lifetime plan with AT&T than the social contract.

Whoops I was born. According to government apologists I just signed the social contract… (rant rant rant)

Well, thank you, Snowflake. I’ll mull this over.

I’m still quite new to economics, I have yet to dig into any of the big books (MES/HA/C:TOE).

^This.

The entrepreneurs DiLorenzo mentions didn’t exploit workers. They provided them with jobs that they voluntarily chose. The workers who went on strike often rioted and violated other peoples’ property rights. Since the “legitimate” role of government is to protect property rights, it only makes sense that entrepreneurs like Hill would call in the National Guard against the thieves, criminals, and extortionists who went on strike.

I think he is confused about what ‘strike breaking’ is… possibly because he is confused about what striking meant at that time in history.

‘Striking’ did not mean that workers simply en-mass boycotted the workplace till demands were met as negotiating tactic. It was common practice to picket (or even occupy the workplace) using illegitimate violence against ‘scabs’ and ‘strikebreakers’ so that the boycott would have an effect (i.e. that the workers would not simply be replaced by others grateful for work).

As such, the violence visited on strikers, picketing, on location, and stopping willing workers from going about ttheir business, in these historical episodes was often a case of self-defense; Self-defense of the owner vis his capital goods, and of willing ‘scabs’ and ‘picket line crossers’

StrikeBreaking Forces were thereto dissipate the illegitimate and violent pickets, to defend scabs from the violence of strikers and the like. It did not mean that boycotting workers were beaten up in their homes until they came back as slaves to their former positions…

You know you could just link him this thread. You don’t have to fight him alone.

You don’t have to fight period. If someone disagrees with you, and they aren’t willing to listen to an exposition of the facts, then just move on with your life. Find happiness. Eat ice cream. Paint your toenails.

Or better yet, talk to someone who doesn’t have established positions or an ideological bias to overcome.

Someone like Rockefeller “attacked” workers, because those workers would go on strike, trespass and occupy the factory, and attack the “scabs.”

Do you have resources for this claim?

I have yet to formulate my “attack”. hehehe

I wanted to find out the truth behind his claims and to find my own resources to meet his own. I think he’s a mutually agreeable chap who may be as lacking in historic knowledge as myself, so who knows where this will go.

side note: As for finding someone else to talk to… I’ve been working on my 17 year old cousin. She’s a smart lass, so maybe I can get her to see what’s up.

Idk if you saw this thread but it might be useful. Its mostly theoretical/rhetorical but it tells you where to go.

Wikipedia is full of it. pick a famous strike, read about the violence the striking workers did to scabs and how they impeded business.

Well, thanks, folks. I appreciate the help. I’ll start digging in and then show this bloke what’s what.

Why are mercenaries needed to break up strikes? To mail out firing notices?

But isn’t it pretty well argued in such works as In Restraint of Trade by Shaffer, The Triumph of Conservatism by Kolko and various other sources that throughout the nineteenth and twentieth century that state economic interference, right down to the way it enforced and defined property titles, created artificially centralized and aggregated business structures and that such organizations as Standard Oil and Wal-Mart would probably not be possible without it? And I don’t mean the direct patronization of government, but simply the fact that the structure and operation of ‘big business’ is itself somewhat anti-thetical to free-markets? I’m not an expert economist or anything, but I think many of the critiques the individualist anarchists had of the people like Vanderbilt were correct in that, whatever virtues he possessed, his accumulation and wealth and methods of doing business were simply not natural results in laissez-faire.

Maybe you’ll have to expand on this more. Its hard to tell what you mean by big business. None of us defend corporatism, but if a single company were so efficient that it dominated the market and became the only provider of its service, we would defend that (and probably sing its praises)

The Austrian theory of competition states that the number of firms operating in the market at any point in time doesn’t really matter so long as new firms can be created to enter the market. So even if you only had one producer of a particular good, there would theoretically be no problem of monopoly since another entrepreneur could bid away unsatisfied customers.

The statist history of “natural monopolies” and cartels forming in the market is bogus. Basically if you look for historical examples of either of those you can’t find them until governments start offering exclusive charters to utility companies and granting monopoly to licensing agencies like the AMA.