Rand Paul...don't ever Stall Again, Stand Up For Private Property Rights

They can always gloss over the nastier parts of their regime when giving their speeches and propaganda.

Maybe. It is certainly possible. I’m reminded of this study, several probably, of where normal people would do awful things if an authority figure told them to. Similar to the stanford prison experiments… but the one I’m thinking of and can’t find.

An authority figure would ask participants to apply a shock to a person. This person was an actor and would pretend to become increasingly distressed about the shocks, to the point of claiming that any further shocks would kill them. The authority figure would tell people to keep shocking them, and like 70% of all people did.

I think this shows that normal people can do terrible things if authority tells them to do so. I don’t think these people are psychopathic, particularly in other contexts. I believe psychopaths behave callously in all situations.

I’m no expert either, but its repeated several times in the wiki article so I have no problem pretending to know what i’m talking about.

If this were an isolated incident, I would agree with you. I can certainly imagine that some immature teenagers might say they’d do it, just for shock value or machoness or something. I know when i used to define myself by having opinions the opposite of everyone else, I would have answered the way bloom did.

this is also available on itunesU under the history of liberty section of the Mises section if your more of an ipod person and can’t listen to the whole thing via youtube

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2010/05/studying-attack-on-rand-paul.html

Here.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/37597.html- Rand’s Trial by Misfire

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/37623.html- Paul cancel’s Meet the Press interview

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/37644.html- Paul and McConnell pledge “unity”

EDIT: And the commentary/reaction from Steele:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/politicolive/0510/Steele_Rand_Paul_philosophy_on_discrimination_misplaced_at_these_times.html?showall

Good point. They can and do, and must in order to engineer their own support. I watched Stalin: Man of Steel the other day on the History Channel. Stalin murdered millions of his own people, yet thanks to propaganda people cried at his funeral as if the world’s greatest living saint had died.

The Milgram experiment! 65% (26 of 40) administered the final, “fatal” schock. I watched a video about it during a class on the Holocaust. So authority can make normal people do psychopathic things, like Hitler’s SS.

I think I’m coming to the conclusion that there aren’t that many true psychopaths or sociopaths in the world. Therefore, the key is understanding why normal people do terrible things. Even the dictator doesn’t necessarily have to be insane, especially if he isn’t the one doing the actual killing or witnessing the results of his orders.

hmmm…well, I hope bloom is immature then, not a psychopath.

By the way, I am of the belief that “mental” or “psychological” disorders are caused by physical and chemical imbalances in the brain, and can be treated without synthetic drugs or psychoanalysis. For example, in the 1960s Linus Pauling discovered that schizophrenia could be cured with large doses of vitamins such as Vitamin C and Niacin. He coined the term Orthomolecular Medicine, which seeks to bring the body back into balance using substances natural to the body: vitamins, minerals, amino acids, fatty acids, etc. If you’re interested, here’s a paper on orthomolecular theory by Linus Pauling.

I read something about how the serotonin levels might be lower in psychopathic patients, but thus far all treatments have been completely unsuccessful. The best they can do is blend in better. Its unfortunate.

Don’t worry, I’m going to cure all mental illness when I grow up. And cancer.

: )

Rand did blow this one, but, um, he could have kind of saw it coming?

Why subject yourself to a show where the host will obviously try to make you, holding views completely counter to the host’s, look bad?

what was the dude thinking?

At least Ron argues better. Rand should learn from his old man.

Rand got asked this question in some minor interview, and gave the standard libertarian response. The left found it, and blew it up so that they can just call him racist instead of actually debating.

The colloseum… the grand spectacle. Everyone come look at this racist man!

"Rand did blow this one, but, um, he could have kind of saw it coming?

Why subject yourself to a show where the host will obviously try to make you, holding views completely counter to the host’s, look bad?

what was the dude thinking?"

He’s a political rookie. It was a rookie mistake, hopefully he’ll consult with the top brass before making anymore serious statements that don’t immediately relate to his race in Kentucky.

“Rand got asked this question in some minor interview, and gave the standard libertarian response. The left found it, and blew it up so that they can just call him racist instead of actually debating.”

Rand made things much worse by denying what he believed in!

Always stick to your guns…

if they give you a ridiculous scenario…answer them by not answering them with a ridiculous government forced scenario of your own…

but don’t ever ever ever ever ever ever

ever ever ever

everever

ever ever

deny what you’ve already said if its true and how you feel…

ignore it…and talk about another government brought on scenario…but DO NOT DENY

People think democracy entails some kind of accountability, so they’ll trade personal sovereignty and state sovereingty for a little feel-good legalese and some big bad cops to lay it on the non-believers.

And we would like to say the United States is/was epitomizing libertarianism.

Isn’t it a paradox in NAP to “enforce” liberty at all?

If no single party has legitimate ownership of the use of force, who’s to protect the victims from the perpetrators of force deemed unacceptable in NAP?

It just seems like “force” itself is almost an impartial and subjective phenomenon. The perception of civilizations, and its shown to vary greatly, fluctuates and becomes diverse in judging which social situations require what level of force and to what degree this is socially-unacceptable aggression. The social acceptance element brings into light the idea of social contracts. Americans accept, to a greater or lesser degree, the legitimacy of both government in its current incarnation and of the domination of their political sphere by monied interests, vica versa. They reserve the right to revolt and overthrow government, of course. Democratic government is the mechanism here and if people want to elect Libertarians that scale down government to a twig, then they will.

You can edit your post by clicking the More button in the top right corner, versus making 3+ posts back to back.

Isn’t it a paradox in NAP to “enforce” liberty at all?

I don’t see how you come to this position. Force in response to force is different than initiating violence.

As it stands today someone’s authority to initiate force regardless of intent lies upon their value of private property and the legitimacy provided to it when other people recognize its status and attribute to that property some value. You have money, you buy yourself a gun. People fear you. Less wealthy people are then at a proportional disadvantage to potentially aggressive authorities.

Isn’t inducing fear a form of aggression?

As it stands today someone’s authority to initiate force regardless of intent lies upon their value of private property and the legitimacy provided to it when other people recognize its status and attribute to that property some value. You have money, you buy yourself a gun. People fear you. Less wealthy people are then at a proportional disadvantage to potentially aggressive authorities.

This is so convoluted, and I don’t feel like trying to guess what you are getting at. What is the point or what does this prove?

Isn’t inducing fear a form of aggression?

In some cases. It isn’t very reasonable to say that distributing a scary movie constitutes a threat of physical violence. I know you saw another thread about this recently and I don’t feel like repeating myself.

Now, to be clear, before continuing: there are legions of brilliant individual libertarians. Weigel himself, for example, is a great writer and reporter, and a true master of Twitter. We’ve never met, but by all accounts, he’s also very much a stand-up fellow. But brilliant, decent people can think silly things. And that’s what’s going on here. It’s time to stop taking libertarianism seriously.

Ironically, the best way into this point comes from another brilliant libertarian, legal scholar Richard Epstein. Says Epstein, “To be against Title II in 1964 would be to be brain-dead to the underlying realities of how this world works.”

There’s the key – “the underlying realities of how the world works.” Because never, and I mean never, has there been capitalist enterprise that wasn’t ultimately underwritten by the state. This is true at an obvious level that even most libertarians would concede (though maybe not some of the Austrian economists whom Rand Paul adores): for the system to work, you need some kind of bare bones apparatus for enforcing contracts and protecting property. But it’s also true in a more profound, historical sense. To summarize very briefly a long and complicated process, we got capitalism in the first place through a long process of flirtation between governments on the one hand, and bankers and merchants on the other, culminating in the Industrial Revolution. What libertarians revere as an eternal, holy truth is in fact, in the grand scheme of human history, quite young. And if they’d just stop worshiping for a minute, they’d notice the parents hovering in the background.

Libertarians like Paul are walking around with the idea that the world could just snap back to a naturally-occurring benign order if the government stopped interfering. As Paul implied, good people wouldn’t shop at the racist stores, so there wouldn’t be any.

This is the belief system of people who have been the unwitting recipients of massive government backing for their entire lives. To borrow a phrase, they were born on third base, and think they hit a triple. We could fill a library with the details of the state underwriting enjoyed by American business – hell, we could fill a fair chunk of the Internet, if we weren’t using it all on Rand Paul already. And I don’t just mean modern corporate welfare, or centuries-ago agricultural changes. Most left-of-center policymaking can fit into this category in one way or another.

Think about the New Deal. Although libertarian ingrates will never admit it, without the reforms of the 1930s, there might not be private property left for them to complain about the government infringing on. Not many capitalist democracies could survive 25 percent unemployment, and it doesn’t just happen by good luck. Or, take a couple more recent examples: savvy health insurance executives were quite aware during this past year that, if reform failed again, skyrocketing prices were likely to doom the whole scheme of private insurance (itself a freak accident of federal policy) and bring on single-payer. Here’s a fun sci-fi one: Imagine the moment in, say, twenty years, when the evidence of climate change has become undeniable, and there’s an urgent crackdown on carbon-intensive industries. Then coal companies and agribusiness will be wishing they’d gotten on board with the mild, slow-moving reform that is cap-and-trade.

Get it? The government didn’t just help make the “free market” in the first place – although it did do that. It’s also constantly busy trimming around the edges, maintaining the thing, keeping it healthy. The state can think ahead and balance competing interests in a way that no single company can.

The libertarian who insists that the state has no place beyond basic night-watchman duties is like a teenager who, having been given a car, promptly starts demanding the right to stay out all night. Sometimes, someone else really is looking out for your best interests by saying no. (This isn’t to say the state is looking out for the best interests of everybody, or even most people. The point is just that, however Glenn Beck might hyperventilate, the government doesn’t want to destroy the market. It wants to preserve it, and it does this job better than the market can on its own.)

And that’s why the best rap on libertarians isn’t that they’re racist, or selfish. (Though some of them are those things, and their beliefs encourage both bad behaviors, even if accidentally.) It’s that they’re thoroughly out of touch with reality. It’s a worldview that prospers only so long as nobody tries it, and is too unreflective and self-absorbed to realize this. In other words, it’s bratty. And that’s bad enough.

oh my.

I like how his link reference to Austrian Economics is just the wiki page of Rothbard

https://forum.freecapitalists.org/t/rand-paul-dont-ever-stall-again-stand-up-for-private-property-rights/13105/46

This post was finally approved by moderators. It took a week…

Thank you.

[INSULT DELETED] No wonder it took a week to get that posted.

Persecution or not, the Nazis had legal authority. How did they have legal authority? Because they had the power to enforce their rules. That’s all that’s required for laws to be laws; someone has to have the power to enforce them.

As I pointed out earlier, if I could pass an edict that said that all self identifying libertarians would be killed as enemies of the state, and I could enforce this new rule, it would be law. But I do not have this power.

Another way to think of law is to imagine a world with Superman. Anything Superman decreed would be considered law. If you broke the law and Superman found out, Superman would fly down and punish you. Whether you agreed with Superman or not, the only way to take his legal authority away would be to take his power away.

EDIT: I’ve been re-reading your post and I think I understand what you’re saying but you’re still working from the paradigm of “the law is about right and wrong.” This is incorrect. The law only says what’s allowed and not allowed.

Laws can be persecutory. Just because a law is immoral does not mean it’s suddenly taken off the books.