Refutations of The Austrian Business Cycle/Austrian Economics

@yessir,

I see you’ve asked the question twice. I can’t answer for the OP, but this is what I think real business cycle theorists would say:

They would provide a litany of “external shocks”; the market for sub-prime mortgages dried up suddenly, Fannie Mae collapsed, fraud, lack of regulation, the President of the U.S. made a negative speech in Sept. 08 that scared every one, etc.

They will come up with a variety of external shocks that fit their theory.

They won’t tell you that the Fed tightened the money supply between June '04 (1%) and June '06 (5.25%), the growth momentum of the money supply slowed, malinvestment was exposed (because malinvestment requires an ever increasing growth momentum of money supply to sustain it), and the bust began.

They would provide a litany of “external shocks”; the market for sub-prime mortgages dried up suddenly, Fannie Mae collapsed, fraud, lack of regulation, the President of the U.S. made a negative speech in Sept. 08 that scared every one, etc.


Thanks Chloe.

I still don’t understand how those are external shocks? What causes the sub-prime mortgage to dry up?

Indeed, and the reason they call these things external shocks is because they don’t allow the structure of production into their models.

Maybe you shouldn’t speak on theories you’re not familiar with?

“Malinvestment”? Seriously? Did you read this thread?

Maybe you shouldn’t speak on theories you’re not familiar with?

“Malinvestment”? Seriously? Did you read this thread?

Neoclassical, malinvestments are indeed a crucial part of the Austrian explanation of the business cycle. She did not say you claim malinvestments, she said “they won’t tell you that… (Austrian point of view)”.

Now please tell me what theories you use to advise ancap and how those theories don’t make the fallacy of using a cardinal interpretation of ordinal utility. (Or if they do, why it would somehow be acceptable, ignoring what even mainstream micro-economists can tell you.)

Quoting Caplan, According to Rothbard, the mainstream approach credulously accepted the use of cardinal utility, when only the use of ordinal utility is defensible. As Rothbard insists, “Value scales of each individual are purely ordinal, and there is no way whatever of measuring the distance between the rankings; indeed, any concept of such distance is a fallacious one.”[3]

At first, Rothbard appears to limit his criticism solely to “Those writers who have vainly attempted to measure psychic gains from exchange” by their consumer’s surplus.[4] But it soon becomes clear that Rothbard rejects the entire utility-function approach as incoherent: “The chief errors here consist in conceiving utility as a certain quantity, a definite function of an increment of the commodity… Utilities are not quantities, but ranks…”[5] As if to emphasize the strength of his disagreement with the mainstream approach to utility, Rothbard goes on to dismiss the standard intermediate micro theorem “that in equilibrium the ratio of the marginal utilities of the various goods equals the ratio of their prices. Without entering in detail into the manner by which these writers arrive at this conclusion, we can see its absurdity clearly, since utilities are not quantities and therefore cannot be divided.”[6] What initially appeared to be a slight difference in nomenclature yields serious disagreement about some fairly basic issues.

As plausible as Rothbard sounds on this issue, he simply does not understand the position he is attacking. The utility function approach is based as squarely on ordinal utility as Rothbard’s is. The modern neoclassical theorists - such as Arrow and Debreau - who developed the utility function approach went out of their way to avoid the use of cardinal utility.[7] Let a neoclassical theorist say “bundle one offers utility of 8, while bundle two offers utility of 7,” and Rothbard concludes that he believes in cardinal utility. But the language here is technical; to parse it, you must return to the underlying definitions. Upon doing so, you will find that the meaning of “bundle one offers utility of 8, while bundle two offers utility of 7” is nothing more or less than “bundle one is preferred to bundle two.” A utility function is just a short-hand summary about an agent’s ordinal preferences, not a claim about “utils.”[8] This is why neoclassicals say that the utility function is uniquely defined up to a monotonic transformation. You can rescale any utility function however you like, so long as you re-scale it monotonically.[9]

What about the theorem - that Rothbard dismissed - which claims that utility-maximizing individuals equalize the marginal utilities of goods consumed divided by their prices? Doesn’t this show that neoclassicals believe in cardinal utility? No, it does not; statements made in technical jargon often sound absurd if you forget the underlying definitions. A utility function just uses numbers to summarize ordinal rankings; it doesn’t commit us to belief in cardinal utility. Deriving the marginal utility of individual goods from this function commits us to nothing extra.[10]

WTF? I specifically pointed out that I did not believe Schiff made correct predictions; I specifically denied him prophetic abilities, let alone any “supernatural” attribute.

I said that Schiff, popular as an economic doomsayer, was bound to be right from time to time.

Can someone relabel this video “Peter Schiff was VERY wrong”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cz-6tYHK8I. Below 2000?

Peter Schiff has been critical of the U.S. economy for a reason, not because of a natural pessimism. He responded to criticisms of his views earlier: First of all, the hyper inflation issue is a straw man at best. While I often talk about the possibility of hyper inflation, I have always said that it would be a worse-case scenario that would play out over many years. The fact that it did not appear in the first year of the economic crash (2008) does not invalidate my position. I have always maintained that this worst-case scenario will likely be avoided by what will ultimately be a dramatic shift in policy once our leaders come to their senses. However, until then the dollar will likely lose a substantial portion of its value.

Second, I never said that the dollar would go to zero, either in 2008 or any year thereafter. I have said that in the event of hyper inflation the dollar’s value would approach zero. My actual forecast in my book “Crash Proof” was that the Dollar Index would fall to 40 (currently about 85), with a realistic worst case scenario, assuming very high but not hyper inflation, of 20 or lower.

Third, the blogger points out that because the decoupling theory (foreign economies improving while the U.S. falters) that I wrote about in “Crash Proof” has yet to occur, that the theory itself was ridiculous. In my book I wrote that this process would not occur overnight, that initially our creditors would come to our aid, and in so doing our problems would become manifest abroad. I wrote that it would take time for the world to realize that what had been decoupled from the economic train was not the engine but the caboose. In fact, that is precisely the way it is playing out.

Chapter Ten of “Crash Proof” is specifically focused on the need to keep funds liquid to take advantage of the buying opportunity that would initially develop once our stock market began its collapse. I specifically mentioned that when U.S. stocks began to fall, we could expect sympathetic declines overseas. While I did not know the precise timing of those events, I advised readers to prepare.

I did not expect the huge dollar rally of 2008. But to discredit my long-term view of the dollar based on an eight month move is absurd. So while I believed that a weak dollar would cushion the temporary decline I expected in foreign stocks, a strong dollar ended up exacerbating it. In the meantime, I believed that the high dividends these stocks were paying would make it easier to ride out any correction. The problem was that the dollar fell so far leading up to the crisis (in 2005-2007) that by the time the crisis finally erupted the dollar was poised for a bounce.

Central to the argument that my investment thesis is wrong is the belief that the crisis is over or that the recent trends will continue until it is. But the crisis is just beginning and the movements thus far in the dollar, commodities, and foreign stocks, are mere head fakes. Once the speculators have been flushed from the markets, the underlying long-term trends I have been following should return in earnest.

Schiff also said: My central investing premise, a weakening dollar and safety in gold, commodities and foreign stocks, didn’t materialize in 2008. But all the ingredients were (and remain) present for those movements to occur. Over the past year, market reactions that I didn’t foresee – massive global deleveraging, a knee-jerk “flight to quality” into U.S. Treasurys and a sharp countertrend rally in the U.S. dollar – have kept the scenario from playing out.

Throughout my career, I have never claimed great ability to time markets. I was against tech stocks in 1998, and homebuilders and financials in 2004. These stands cost me (and my clients) short-term profits. In contrast, my record of long-term forecasts is well above par and has produced solid long-term results. My clients understand this and, backing their belief with their dollars, have largely remained invested.

Neoclassical, thanks for answering my question, and it’s true that you can simply read one person’s utility curve ordinally, even if they use numbers.

However, this does not answer my question how these people would give policy advise. The way I see it, it is impossible to ordinally compare utility across persons and make policy recommendations (for society, with n>1 persons) other than “allow free trade”.

For example, happiness research has done surveys and concludes people (from the survey, but let’s generalize) feel better off living in a neighboorhood where they are the richest, but feel worse when their neighbours are richer.

You can write these findings down in a utility curve and say “but we interpret ordinally”, but than how will you make the egalitarian policy recommendations (as happiness researchers do) if you can not know how much better, or how much worse, these rich vs poor people feel because of neighboorhood effects? All happiness research can do without using cardinal utility is reporting these facts and stressing they are not good reason for any policy.

The only way you can be sure ordinally both people are better off is if person A prefers good 1 but has good 2 and person B prefers good 2 but has good 1. However, in this case the market will do the trade, and if the market doesn’t, it means there are other preferences preventing the trade from happening. (Unless you can ordinally argue market failures, but you can’t.)

Do you get what I’m saying? I can rephrase if it’s unclear.

Also, could you give me an example of an actual policy recommendation that is based on ordinal interpretation of utility curves?

You misunderstand the entrepreneurial mind-set, which is what makes you echo again and again the same old rational expectation criticism of the business cycle, which has been already adequately addressed by numerous Austrians in the past.

The entrepreneur is always looking for profit opportunities, that is buy low and sell high at some point in the future. That is all. It makes absolutely no difference if the entrepreneurs understand ABCT or not. The manipulation of credit will always induce some entrepreneurs to capitalize on this policy in the hope that they will be the ones with the foresight to “exit” or properly maneuver in time to profit. That the going interest rate in the loans market does not tank to zero is proof that there is a demand for this new credit. Most people will want to take advantage of the lower interest regardless if they think that it is artificially low or not.

Here is another way of thinking about it. According to your objection based on rational expectations, home buyers looking to mortgage a new home or refinance should do what exactly? Not take advantage of a lower interest rate and wait for the interest rate to rise? Are you serious???

Gero, did you even bother to watch the YouTube video I posted?

Consultant, I believe voluntary exchange demonstrably increases ex ante expecations of utility from persons most informed about the choices and outcomes, and that is my “policy” recommendation.

Of course, I believe all public policy is coercive policy; I advocate a free market in law-making, which I believe will tend toward efficient outcomes.

I did watch it. The only claim he made that seemed obviously wrong was the Dow not falling below 500. He did not know Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan would lower interest rates for a prolonged period inflating a housing bubble in response to the bursting dot-com bubble.

DD5, why would low short-term interest rates lead to inefficient, irrational decision-making?

Let me pose a similar situation.

Most libertarians believe Herbert Hoover was proto-New Deal, not a laissez-faire President. In fact, one measure he took was to ask industry leaders to stabilize nominal wages even though there was rampant deflation. By making wages sticky, these businessmen were clearly going against rational decision-making: leaving wages high would increase unemployment, for instance.

Why would people, en masse, make a mistake like this?

They actually didn’t make a mistake; imposing wage rigidity was rational, as Bryan Caplan makes clear.

The marketplace simply can’t be fooled like you claim it can. That’s my general point. If people are that irrational in “speculative booms,” then they are that irrational all the time. They are “habitually on the edge of disaster,” as Caplan states elsewhere.

Why is it mutually incompatible for there to be an increasing money supply and rational decision-making? (And don’t any of you say they are being rational! Most people didn’t rationally choose bankruptcy, foreclosure, lost jobs, etc.)

You should really get around to addressing my post instead of picking only the easy battles. You also ignored jon irenicus, liberty student, and lilburn, some of the most senior and intelligent members on this forum. Your contrarian opinions here are appreciated, but will quickly become annoying without the catharsis of debate.

I am just one man! I am being argued with by numerous people, as you cite, and in many different threads!

I checked, and I found that I did not ignore most of them, and the rest I didn’t ignore intentionally.

What question did you want me to answer?

In other words, there’s a market failure in many of the ways the market could subvert fed policy. If you also think that the fed is rational, you might allow that the fed could always keep winning because of its institutional advantages.

Also

Furthermore, I agree that if we had a purely free market and a banking system starting inflating the money supply, the market would own it in about 10 seconds. So why doesn’t it? Because there are all these other rules that create a market failure.

In fact, one measure he took was to ask industry leaders to stabilize nominal wages even though there was rampant deflation

are you arguing that Hoover did no more than merely suggest business strategies to business leaders for them to consider; he was purely rhetorical?