Wiki and the ABCT

A friend of mine sent me the wiki “Critiques” of Austrian Business Cycle Theory.

The red flag I noted was the line Nobel laureate Paul Krugman

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on these points.

I haven’t read up on the crashes that they speak of - any thoughts on these “Critiques”?

Critiques

The Austrian theory of the business cycle is now rarely discussed by mainstream economists, but was more actively debated in the mid-20th century.[41] Nobel laureate Hayek’s formulation of the theory in the 1930s was harshly criticized by John Maynard Keynes, Piero Sraffa and Nicholas Kaldor. In 1932, Piero Sraffa argued that Hayek’s formulation of the business cycle required a kind of money that was entirely neutral, and was in effect a simple commodity, unable to act as a store of value or be loaned at interest.[42] Hayek reformulated his theory in response to those objections, but his reformulation was then criticised by Nicholas Kaldor in 1939 [43] and again in 1942.

More recently, mainstream economists like Nobel laureate Milton Friedman,[6][7] Gordon Tullock,[8] Bryan Caplan,[9] and Paul Krugman[10] have stated that they regard the theory as incorrect. David Laidler views the theory as motivated by the political leanings of its major proponents, as Austrian economists are known for their strong opposition to government involvement in the economy, and argues that the theory was discredited because of its association with “nihilistic policy prescriptions” for the Great Depression. On the other hand, Laidler also stated that its core insights were materially worthwhile, especially as related to the work of Dennis Robertson.[44]

In 1988 Gordon Tullock explained his disagreement with the theory.[8] His main point is that “if the process that Rothbard describes did occur, there would be many corporate bankruptcies and business people jumping out of the windows of office buildings, but there would be only minor transitional unemployment. In fact, measured GNP would be higher as a result.” This is because the Austrian theory implies fluctuations in investment, but not in the production decisions of firms. Nobel laureate Paul Krugman also made a similar argument when he stated that the theory implies that consumption would increase during downturns and cannot explain the empirical observation that spending in all sectors of the economy falls during a recession,[10].

Mainstream economists argue that the theory requires bankers and investors to exhibit a kind of irrationality – that they be regularly fooled into making unprofitable investments by temporarily low interest rates.[8][9][45] Critics have also argued that, as the theory points to the actions of fractional-reserve banks and central banks to explain business cycles, it fails to explain the existence of business cycles before the establishment of Federal Reserve in 1913. For example, the Panic of 1873 would initiate the Long Depression in US and much of Europe. Additionally, there were also severe market crashes in the United States of the magnitude of the 1929 crash in 1869, 1882, 1884, 1896, 1901, and 1907; there was no central bank or national monetary policy in the US during these crises. In fact, the movement to establish central banking in the United States was in part a response to the business cycle, particularly the Panic of 1907.[46][47]

Mainstream economists believe that economies have experienced less severe boom-bust cycles after World War II, since central banks have started using monetary policy to stabilize economies[48][49][50] – see especially The Great Moderation.

Mainstream economists believe that economies have experienced less severe boom-bust cycles after World War II, since central banks have started using monetary policy to stabilize economies

It was none other than Christina Romer who disproved the notion that the post-World War II economy was any more stable than the era prior to the Federal Reserve. She concludes,

The fact that the prewar industrial production, unemployment, and GNP data are all excessively volatile casts serious doubt on the usual belief that the prewar economy was substantially more volatile than the postwar economy. Indeed, it does appear that the relative stabilization of the postwar economy is a figment of the data. It is important to be very precise about the extent of this conclusion. All three of these studies only examine the data before the Great Depression. As a result, this work in no way challenges the severity of the economic decline of the 1930’s. Rather, what this study and its two companions suggest is that the severity of economic fluctuations on both sides of the Great Depression are roughly equal. In fact, one implication of this work may be to emphasize the degree to which the Great Depression is an anomaly in the history of American business cycles.

I would argue that the Great Depression was not an anamoly, and similar to our current recession, it was a product of an extended boom made possible largely due to the existence of a central bank.

On Krugman, if you’re interested: Krugman contra Hayek.

Umm, everything can act as a store of value and be loaned at interest.

Wonderful academic procedure.

Since when are production decisions not investments?

Where’d he pull that one from? Don’t tell me they’re seriously calling Krugman’s “Hangover Theory” a legitimate criticism.

It’s not at all irrational behavior from the perspective of those who are taking out the loans. Is the standard of rationality a clairvoyant understanding of the state of real savings?

ABCT does not rely on the existence of fractional reserve banking or on central banks.

Pure lies. I’m sure suspension of specie payments is just revisionist nonsense, amirite?

Thanks for the replies guys - I figured as much.

I wonder who wrote this crap.

Krugman is a douche.

All you need to do is look at what wiki has to say about global warming…

Although she’s not an Austrian, Amity Shlaes is a decent economist and is useful for countering the historical claims made by the ABCT critics.

I wonder who wrote this crap.

Wikipedia articles have to be written objectively, and this includes listing criticism. While the article may not be that great, a good Wikipedia article would not only argue in favor of the ABCT knowing that there is criticism of it. I have wanted to re-write the ABCT article for quite some time, but as an experienced Wikipedia editor I know that it would have to include criticism (criticism without obvious rebuttal, at that).

Wikipedia articles have to be written objectively

Is that why every political argue on Progressivism, Social Democracy and 9/10ths of history are written with a hardcore Progressive slant and loaded terminology?

Wikipedia gets worse every day.

I guess that objectivity is subjective.

Is that why every political argue on Progressivism, Social Democracy and 9/10ths of history are written with a hardcore Progressive slant and loaded terminology?

No, it is because the editors are in large part slanted towards those views. But, I didn’t claim otherwise. I only argued that any article on ABCT should include opposing viewpoints, whether we agree with them or not. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth (I never claimed all of Wikipedia is perfect; but writing an article on ABCT without criticism would be just as bad).

It’s actually ironic you say this, because recently there has been a lot of problems with Austrian editors flooding econ-related articles and awkwardly inserting the Austrian point of view. So, in terms of economic articles, the problem seems to be the opposite (and this naturally has brought about a “progressive” response).

Daniel,

I guess that objectivity is subjective.

Objectivity, in this case, means an article where neither one or the other is really supported. A good way of providing a better balance would be to outline the criticisms, and then say that it was responded to and link to the response through a footnote.

In fact…

I only argued that any article on ABCT should include opposing viewpoints

Oh, sure, I’m not complaining about that. I’m just complaining about the site content in general.

Wikipedia gets worse every day.

Please tell me you have good articles on this: Wikipedia has been on my shitlist for the past few months. I always thought “the lean” was more or less because it appeals to the same crowd as Cracked Magazine (also on my shitlist); IT dudes and hipsters with that “snarky dude humor” Progressive bend.

That said is kind of funny to see how much bizzare crap you can throw on the She-Hulk page and get away with.

I don’t have good articles, BUT if you combine http://www.metapedia.org/ with Wikipedia the fascisti and Progressive elements almost balance out into something resembling reality.

Oh dear 1st sentence on Barack Obama:

“It is claimed Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii to a Muslim, black African father from Kenya, Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., and a white American mother, Stanley Ann Dunham. According to divorce records they were married on February 2, 1961 in Maui. However, no guests attended the “ceremony” and there were no witnesses to the alleged marriage.”

This is a winner. I don’t think we are equiped to handel the internet. The temptation of getting bite sized information in order to confirm one’s biases to state one’s opinion as quickly as possible can not end well.

That’s hilarious, Don, but totally off topic.

Edit: NVM, I had my threads confused :slight_smile:

Wikipedia articles have to be written objectively, and this includes listing criticism.

Ha - well tell that to the guy who rewrote pretty much every article related to global warming.

Connolley took control of all things climate in the most used information source the world has ever known – Wikipedia. Starting in February 2003, just when opposition to the claims of the band members were beginning to gel, Connolley set to work on the Wikipedia site. He rewrote Wikipedia’s articles on global warming, on the greenhouse effect, on the instrumental temperature record, on the urban heat island, on climate models, on global cooling. On Feb. 14, he began to erase the Little Ice Age; on Aug.11, the Medieval Warm Period. In October, he turned his attention to the hockey stick graph. He rewrote articles on the politics of global warming and on the scientists who were skeptical of the band. Richard Lindzen and Fred Singer, two of the world’s most distinguished climate scientists, were among his early targets, followed by others that the band especially hated, such as Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, authorities on the Medieval Warm Period.

Read more about it here…

For a very long time the only thing I have gone to wiki for is names, places, and dates - it is particularly good for pop culture.

Posts about tomatos, animals, that sort of stuff can be somewhat trusted as well.

Nothing political though…

Ha - well tell that to the guy who rewrote pretty much every article related to global warming.

My point may have been posited unclearly. A good Wikipedia article has to be written objectively.

Nothing political though…

Notice how every entry on fascism, nationalism or Nazis has nothing but laundry lists of crimes with loaded terms and tries to transfer all war-guilt onto a bunch of poor countries in central Europe rather than the world empires that attacked them? And nothing about their actual beliefs.

I’m not saying fascism isn’t retarded, but you’d think content as to the beliefs of fascists and Nazis might be germaine to their wikipedia entries (aside from, “They hated jews” every four lines). But then, if that were there, someone might find out that the Fascisti and NaziSozi’s copied their programs from Democratic Progressive America! Couldn’t have that!

Politics is religion. If I didn’t have to live on the same planet as them I’d say I hope they all slaughter eachother.

Wiki has such potential and with it creates a huge risk of confirmation bias (for the reader, not specifically the editor). In fact, I am constantly trying to remind myself that simply reading opinions here does not make my intuition (that usually agrees with those opinions) automatically correct.

A larger problem with wikipedia is that for subjects that require (or maybe better said: prompt) some method of interpretation rather than simple presentation easily leads to influence by those “experts” or sources that the editors put the most trust in. In most cases this has a positive influence lest we have an over abundance of “experts” that happen to be complete crackpots. Unfortunately, as this thread illustrates, that’s almost precisely what has been claimed when it comes to certain aspects of progressivism. Suffice to say that I often avoid taking the political sections at face value, though I can’t claim the same for the average wikipedia reader. Sometimes I prefer to jump straight to the discussion page as that can often be much more indicative of the conflict over any particular subject rather than what can often read assertive in the main page.

the Fascisti and NaziSozi’s copied their programs from Democratic Progressive America!

Such as?