Retopper's anti-anarchism thread

People being fickle, apathetic, or whatever isn’t a good criticism of “an-capism”. Re: the charge of utopianism read Rothbard here. (Link may not work so go to page 297)

While it is vital for the libertarian to hold his ultimate and “extreme” ideal aloft, this does not, contrary to Hayek, make him a “utopian.” The true Utopian is one who advocates a system that is contrary to the natural law of human beings and of the real world. A Utopian system is one that could not work even if everyone were persuaded to try to put it into practice. The Utopian system could not work, i.e., could not sustain itself in operation. The Utopian goal of the left: communism — the abolition of specialization and the adoption of uniformity — could not work even if everyone were willing to adopt it immediately. It could not work because it violates the very nature of man and the world, especially the uniqueness and individuality of every person, of his abilities and interests, and because it would mean a drastic decline in the production of wealth, so much so as to doom the great bulk of the human race to rapid starvation and extinction.

In short, the term “utopian” in popular parlance confuses two kinds of obstacles in the path of a program radically different from the status quo. One is that it violates the nature of man and of the world and therefore could not work once it was put into effect. This is the utopianism of communism. The second is the difficulty in convincing enough people that the program should be adopted. The former is a bad theory because it violates the nature of man; the latter is simply a problem of human will, of convincing enough people of the Tightness of the doctrine. “Utopian” in its common pejorative sense applies only to the former. In the deepest sense, then, the libertarian doctrine is not Utopian but eminently realistic, because it is the only theory that is really consistent with the nature of man and the world. The libertarian does not deny the variety and diversity of man, he glories in it and seeks to give that diversity full expression in a world of complete freedom. And in doing [p. 304] so, he also brings about an enormous increase in productivity and in the living standards of everyone, an eminently “practical” result generally scorned by true Utopians as evil “materialism.”

The libertarian is also eminently realistic because he alone understands fully the nature of the State and its thrust for power. In contrast, it is the seemingly far more realistic conservative believer in “limited government” who is the truly impractical Utopian. This conservative keeps repeating the litany that the central government should be severely limited by a constitution. Yet, at the same time that he rails against the corruption of the original Constitution and the widening of federal power since 1789, the conservative fails to draw the proper lesson from that degeneration. The idea of a strictly limited constitutional State was a noble experiment that failed, even under the most favorable and propitious circumstances. If it failed then, why should a similar experiment fare any better now? No, it is the conservative laissez-fairist, the man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, “Limit yourself”; it is he who is truly the impractical Utopian.

There is another deep sense in which libertarians scorn the broader utopianism of the left. The left Utopians invariably postulate a drastic change in the nature of man; to the left, man has no nature. The individual is supposed to be infinitely malleable by his institutions, and so the communist ideal (or the transitional socialist system) is supposed to bring about the New Communist Man. The libertarian believes that, in the ultimate analysis, every individual has free will and moulds himself; it is therefore folly to put one’s hope in a uniform and drastic change in people brought about by the projected New Order. The libertarian would like to see a moral improvement in everyone, although his moral goals scarcely coincide with those of the socialists. He would, for example, be overjoyed to see all desire for aggression by one man against another disappear from the face of the earth. But he is far too much of a realist to put his trust in this sort of change. Instead, the libertarian system is one that will at once be far more moral and work much better than any other, given any existing human values and attitudes. The more the desire for aggression disappears, of course, the better any social system will work, including the libertarian; the less need will there be, for example, for any resort to police or to the courts. But the libertarian system places no reliance on any such change.

But consider this also from Kennedy’s The Revolution Will Be All Business

What kind of businesses can advance market anarchism? Businesses which make people more expensive to govern. Businesses which offer their customers the means to protect their property and their persons from government. One of the highest leverage possibilities is a business that offers its customers the means to shield their income from taxation. Taxes become voluntary to the extent that individuals can avoid them, and when taxes become sufficiently voluntary governments must fail. What is the incentive for businesses to offer such services? Such businesses would be going after a piece of the same massive revenue stream that governments now control, the financial rewards would be immense.

I work in finance & insurance, so I’m a part of this. I prosper regardless of the existence of the state, but I want a better life for all people.

[CALL PEOPLE OUT IN THE MEMBERS ISSUES FORUM ONLY.]

Fairplay.

Sure it won’t magically supplant it, but wouldn’t that be sweet? I mean, do you like the idea of a voluntarist society?

What I was saying is that the society would evolve beyond the state.

Look at it this way. The state is a technology. And over time, I think it will fall into disuse as the markets begin to out compete, that is offering services that are either traditionally offered by the state, or that the state has monopolized.

The thought has occurred to me and others that the welfare state could bring about this possibly. (subsidizing the less productive members of society, incentivizing their expansion).

Sure, and to those that can do that two thumbs up. However I don’t know if I’m one of those people. I’ve wasted 3 years studying economics at a engineering school, another in Sweden, and now trying to see if I can finish it in Danmark. Further more, i think my aptitude lies more in law.

But anyway, no I’m quite content to theorize and eventually act on how mankind can reach and actively get to a free voluntary society.

Exactly.

Yes.

I do not advocate preserving the State. I am completely value-less in my description of Sweden’s welfare state. If people want to dismantle the Nordic model, then they will eventually elect politicians who will heed the call for dismantling it.

Politicizing my statement was a nice touch, though.

snowflake,

virtually all of the technological, social, and poltical advances since 1776 occurred within Western liberal democracies. In contrast, statist and/or autocratic nations contributed nothing but violence, instability, enslavement, and poverty. Simarily, anarchist societies contributed absolute nothing since none existed or those small enclaves that were present were irrelevent and soon to be extincted. So causation can be established between the assembly line (henry ford), telecommunications (bell), rocketry (goodard), semiconductor (bell labs), operating systems (gates), republicanism, seperation of powers, balance of powers, inalienable rights, et al because these improvements occurred almost exclusively in liberal democracies that possessed more economic and political freedoms.

(Note that liberal democracy does not imply pure democracy. For example, the USA is a Constitutional Federal REpublic and NOT a democracy. IN summary, democracy is simply a term for representative governance)

In addition, if you DONT think that representative governments facilitated these advancements – then what was the causal mechanism ? Presumably, you believe that another independent variable would drive progress irrespective of whether that society was autocratic or representative. Then provide your explanation for the vast improvements in life expectancy, technology, leisure time, freedom, free trade, free enterprise, et al if liberal democracy was not the framework in which these changes occurred.

for example, what was the driving force (of course capitalism) ? And note that capitalism, albeit impure, has functioned most effectively under a classical liberal framework as opposed to an ancap framework (which history has shown isn’t viable)

Moreover, in the absence of classical liberalism and capitalism, how would the industrial revolution have occurred? Note that if we waited for anarchism to force this beneficial change we would still be living in log cabins.

Of course you ignore the links on past and present anarchist societies. Fine.–snowflake

I am aware that there have been anarchist societies in the past (small, insignificant, and scattered) – and they do not exist today! Indeed I did not ignore this fact. It supports my argument that anarchist societies are simply plunder for autocratic states, or largely irrevelevant. In contrast, liberal democracies have grown at a pace unprecendented in human history. They are the most virulent of all governing systems, absolutely viable, prosperous, and dynamic.

Anarchist socieities are better for the vast majority of people. They are not better for kings and demagogues who rule the status quo. This is why none have been established; because political power rests in the hands of the few. Duh.–snowflake

How can something be “better for the vast majority of people” if it doesnt exist and in the rare instances that it occurs it cant defend or nurture itself? Note that every anarchist society has become extinct. Anarchism is a defective societal gene, probably more fatal than even marxism. For example, christmas, candy, and nuts everyday is in theory better for the vast majority of people, however, like anarchism, it is not practical or sustainable.

So? How far has the government been rolled back? Was it rolled back as far as possible to allow the greatest amount of productivity and flourishing? OR was it rolled back only just enough to stop the whole mess from collapsing? States voluntarily give up power only insofar as it is in their own self interest. If they could find a way, they would enslave us all.–snowflake

Of course we all want government rolled back as much as possible. and of course, the recent modest reductions will not reverse the survival level threat from the welfare state to our political and economic freedoms ---- yet events have shown that representative government as established in the late 20th century is a dynamic instrument in which to force negative freedoms on central governance. In contrast, the anarchists offer nothing except doom and gloom in the absence of a viable practical alternative.

So if we default to collective decision making… we’ll have individualism… and if anyone doesn’t like it they have to be attacked… and this is how we’re going to get to peace.–snowflake

not collective decision making ---- self-evident truths outlined within a COnstitutional Federal Republic designed to limit government power. FOr example, a balanced budget amendment, state’s rights, elimination of the welfare state, free trade, reduced military expenditures, reduced foreign entanglements, elimination of government agencies and departments, the elimination of the Federal reserve, et al.

the anarchist fail to see the utility of a governing framework (US Constitution) that strengthens indivisual rights and institutionalizes checks and balances on government power.

Citation? The reasoning is suspect because no matter how big or burly someone is, he’s not more so than 2-3 other people, much less his whole tribe. The more recent evidence we have from native americans suggests they favored free association.-- snowflake

and what happened to these native americans snowflake ?

[PLEASE BE CIVIL]

[COMPLAINTS ABOUT OTHER MEMBERS BELONG IN THE MEMBER ISSUES FORUM]

They confederated, sir. But your implied argument doesn’t seem to hold water.

You have been told to read Democracy: The God that Failed many times by many people.

You know we are FREE MARKET anarchists right? The free market contributed everything. We advocate Free Markets everywhere, including the provision of security. We get credit for technological innovation. The state gets none. You pay only baseless lip service to the idea that the state is necessary for social cooperation. Let me spell it out for you:

The state does not give a damn about protecting your rights or property. It has no incentive to. This is the utopian pipe dream; that somehow a group can be entrusted with monopoly power over the legal system and the not abuse it. We favor market courts, accountable to consumers every day through the rigors of competition, a weeding out process which the state can never have.

I also fail to see how you can chalk up prosperity to america being a ‘liberal democracy’ when the government was at its minimum and not doing anything.

Free association and private ownership. Not democracy. Not voting. Not central planning.

Hot air. The differences between minarchism and anarchism are miniscule. Minarchism, however, is Utopian. See ERO’s above post.

Since you’re so buff on history, can you find an example of an ancap society not working? Did the store owners turn on eachother with guns? Was there chaos in the streets? Was it better than their alternative?

Actually they do. You didn’t follow the link because you’re afraid of anything that would challenge your simplistic worldviews.

The same way a cure for aids doesn’t exist.

To the contrary. If the united stats were ancap it would defend itself magnificently. $6 boxcutters would no longer best a $500billion military budget.

This is all flame. You don’t respond to my objection at all, which was that in instances where the state is rolled back, it is only the minimal amount that will stop the status quo from collapsing. The state does not remove itself out of concern for the greater good. Naive.

Democracy is collective decision making, direct or indirect.

OH well, this really isn’t included in the definition of democracy. Maybe i shouldn’t be debating with someone who can’t tell the difference between constitutional government and representative democracy. This is actually want ancaps want, except instead of reduce/balance, you put abolish in front of everything.

Aliens killed them. The same way Aliens could so easily destroy the democracies and any other government on the planet. Superior firepower and disease.

Yes, that’s why people just voluntarily send in their taxes. Come on.

In case you haven’t been following the thread, I’m not trying to “inspire the masses” and I don’t think that’s what LvMI is about, either. I have written a post on my view of “anarchy” as a goal, here. It’s short.

I’m sorry you perceive postmodernism or polylogism in my post, I can assure you that I despise and eschew these. In fact, it is my view that postmodernism is the result of trying to synthesize “government” and “good”. “Good government” is a blatant contradiction of terms and the attempt of the modern mind to hold this doublethought without having an aneurysm is one of the primary motivations behind postmodern thought. If a thing can be both true and false together, then perhaps it is possible for government to be both good and evil at once. It has to be evil in order to be good. It has to violate our rights in order to protect them. Don’t you see?

Clayton -

Take it literally. Take it literally. rofl

I heard a rumor the Aliens did not have proper documentation when crossing the atmospheric border and we’re illegal. :slight_smile:

I would keep my taxes if I could opt-out of the State’s social system at one moment and be assured my social security is somehow provided for by non-State entities later in the course of life.

Read it. Liked it. The definition of anarchy in the public vernacular is intersubjective, but we can all agree that there is a universal meaning to anarchy and I strongly agree with (at least what I understand as) your conception that it simply is the ideal behind the realistic task of breaking the State monopoly on laws.

“Rather, we (anti-statists) should focus our energies on exposing and explaining the crimes of State to which the law monopoly is accessory.”

Clears it up for me. You were sounding like trying to portray utopia as a consequence of logic at the beginning of this thread. People would of course have de facto leaders, yet still. I question whether or not anarchy can persist independent of cultural norms that clearly violate NAP. People can simply be naive.

Let me argue that anarchism is a pipe-dream from another point of view than the OPs.

Just playing Devil’s Advocate but by AE, it is true that if something is valued by someone, then there will be much competition for it. The thing that most people tend to value is the equilibrium point. In politics, the equilibrium is essentially some arbitrary form of government. Also, another premise is that what most people value is something that will satisfy their values.

Now assume that anarchism is the best form of government. If this is true than most people would value it, hence we would be getting closer and closer to anarchism and world history would have many more anarchist societies than what is recorded. But that is not true, and most people value the state. So some other form of government is better than anarchy because it is more highly valued -it has the theoretical backing of revealed preference. It is possible though, that anarchy is/was being decreed out of existence by statist laws. But this means that anarchism would aquire an even higher value and people would want it even more even if it meant breaking the law and establishing anarchism anyways -a black market for anarchism. But that doesn’t happen. So clearly, people have expressed their preference for every other form of government except anarchy and therefore every other form of government is somehow better than anarchy.

Okay, lets argue over the conclusion.

Draw an equilibrium between propoganda and cultural preferences and you might have something there.

What does it mean for anarchy to “work”?

That there are no states?

Implying that anarchy is merely the non-existence of states?

I’m not a huge fan of the NAP… when combined with a realistic theory of property, I think it is a good first-order approximation of what rights would likely emerge in a natural order society but it is not more than that. The difference between the NAP and what actual human rights would pertain in a natural order society is like the difference between mental arithmetic tricks and higher mathematics.

And yes, I do agree that there would be quite a few corner-cases where “naive libertarianism” - that is, slavish application of the NAP to every situation no matter how inapplicable - breaks down. The value of the NAP, in my view, is that it is a handy, compact tool for quickly evaluating the moral status of most any government action… and the government’s actions never satisfy the NAP, that is, the government always acts as an immoral coercive agent. So, the NAP has its uses but it only goes so far. To really get to a robust theory of human society in a natural order, I think we have to incorporate the realities of human nature.

Take, for example, Hoppe’s theory of disputes, which he carefully and precisely exposits at the beginning of almost every one of his lectures. In a world of abundance, there is no scarcity. In the absence of scarcity, there can be no conflict except over standing room and the use of one’s body (the only things that would be scarce even in the Garden of Eden). His analytical approach is useful in viewing disputes through a propertarian lens. And it seems to hold up until you consider something like a dispute between a man and his cheating wife’s lover. Naive propertarianism would say that the law must simply ignore the rage of the cheated husband and any property damage that occurs (say, as the result of a fight between the two) must be treated solely as a tort by the cheated husband against the interloping lover.

But I don’t think this approach would hold up in the real world. If we look at how marriage and family emerged in human history, jealous violence has played a crucial role. That doesn’t make any violence motivated by jealousy OK but it does mean that there is something more complicated going on here than propertarianism would lead us to believe. Marriage is ultimately a kind of pseudo-property in females*, specifically, in access to the reproductive capacity of females. A marriage is a public claim of exclusive access to a woman’s reproductive capacity and violations of that claim are extremely serious and have extremely serious material (property) consequences. If your wife becomes pregnant with another man’s child without your knowledge (cuckoldry), you will unwittingly invest your effort (property) propagating someone else’s genes. So, retaliation is a natural response to this and the threat of retaliation is a an integral disincentive to violations of the marriage-based “pseudo-property” in females.

Clayton -

*I am speaking descriptively, here, not normatively, and I am speaking of marriage through the majority of human existence not the modern, Western conception of marriage which is very quirky in its own ways. By “pseudo-property” I mean that the property claim is not against the woman herself but against any other man who would attempt to gain access to her. The husband is claiming a right to ward off all other reproductive partners from the wife but he doesn’t thereby obtain a right to force her to have his children or otherwise own her. This distinction has not always been maintained through history, wives have often fallen to the status of owned objects, but by-and-large marriage has not constituted outright ownership of the wife by the husband.