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My parents are of the ‘New Left’ before it took over the country and became Maoist. I grew up reading books by authors such as Ranold Radosh, John Gatto and Proudhon. As an ethical egalitarian-cosmopolitan and social pluralist I have never had much good to say about the state or war. I came under the sway of free-market economics when I encountered the works of Harold Demsetz, which eventually led me to Mises.org through some google searching.
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No.
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The collapse of the heirarchy power structure as we know it would indeed be required, but that does not mean it would require the collapse of the civilization. Rather, people must be presented with a credible alternative and real options; which (in my opinion) the libertarian movement is not doing very well.
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Education must be supplemented by action.
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This is why I do not support capitalism.
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I haven’t decided yet.
That’s not the case. I don’t have a problem with you being a statist.
If you had been honest about being pro-state by answering question #1, then I wouldn’t have said a thing.
I just think it’s right to point out that one of these answers is not like the other because it is made by someone who doesn’t think aggression is immoral.
Apolitical → Ron Paul → AnCap in May 2009, and then over the summer I clarified my position as pure anti-monopolism or perhaps panarchism, which I regard as “internally consistent AnCap.”
I tend to think technology will make society more libertarian before any significant opinion change can come. Although its a synergistic process, because it was technology that led us to be discussing here in the first place.
Extremely optimistic about the long term, but fairly pessimistic about the short term. In the medium-term there are huge technology changes coming that will turn the world upside down - probably in a good way.
Before 9th grade I was largely apolitical, although when it came to election time I would side with whoever I thought was the better candidate (usually Democrat) by what I heard the talking heads on TV say. They were baseless decisions and didn’t really matter.
Once High School rolled around, I was pretty much a moderate. On most “political compass” tests I took I always came out to be moderate (using the left-right scale), but even at this time I was still apolitical. Then 10th grade rolled around and in January 2008 I started getting into the Ron Paul movement. I slowly but surely made my way toward a Ron Paul Republican (but never called myself that. I pretty much started using the term libertarian after a while). Of course I only had the issues down at that point and not the economics or philosophy of them. A friend of mine introduced me to Lewrockwell.com, and I read that website daily at school during Sophomore/Junior year. That pretty much turned me into a government-hating minarchist.
Then late Junior year I began visiting mises.org (consistently. I had visited here before but thought it was too much information to handle all at once lol) and shifted from being a minarchist to anarchist/anarcho-capitalist/voluntarist.
Yeah, no.
Yes and no. On the one hand, you’d have the bleeding heart liberals blaming private business and capitalism for the collapse of society, and on the other you’d have the libertarians or similar-minded individuals.
Well it’s not like everyone would need to know the exact ins-and-outs of libertarianism before enacting change. Even if people are given the spark they can roll with that and get the ball rolling on reducing/eliminating the government.
Well if they’d rather have money that stick to principles, why do they matter? No need to preach to the close-minded. Just have more libertarians become involved in academia instead of worrying about converting the nonconvertible.
Optimistic. Despite what seems to be the majority of people saying we need to increase government, there are a lot coming out of the woodwork and saying we need to decrease it. They might not necessarily be libertarians, but it’s the idea that counts at this point [:P]
1 - evolution - I was born naked and free; enkoyed reading Huck Finn but then got ticked at my fifth grade teacher for punishing the entire class for an individual’s actions; got ticked at the public school system in sixth grade after being placed in classes below my level; got ticked at the criminal justice system in seventh grade when a good friend was sent to juvie for several years for a small qty of mary jane, dreamt of nuclear war in ninth grade; introduced to existentialism, nihilism, and libertarianism in college, pursued studies in art, philosophy, and economics. Philosophy professor introduced me to FEE; became active in the LP soon realizing it was a waste of time concluding that liberty was inevitable eventually and perhaps misbelieving that my actions were inconsequential. Read Rothbard and reluctantly realized I was an ‘anarchist’, still don’t like that word though due to the negative connotations associated with it.
2 - healing dictator needed - no, the market is self healing
3 - collapse necessary - wouldn’t be necessary since we’ll eventually evolve to it but it might hasten the evolution
4 - education vs government - while the spread of Austrian economic knowledge might not be as fast as we’d like, it is a sustainable long term strategy to topple the leviathan from the ground up without compromising principles.
5 -garnering academic/intellectual support - through education of economics, many will eventually realize the emperor and her bribed henchmen wear no clothes and thus they’ll lose respect and support. You can bribe a persons voice but it is much harder to bribe their pride.
6- optimistic or pessimistic - this pendulum swings both ways for me over time, after discovering Mises.org, I am much more optimistic about the future of liberty. In the end the world will have a choice, annihilation or liberty, I’m confident we’ll choose liberty.
Mixed bag - Objectivist - Voluntaryist
Only if I’m the dictator.
No.
There isn’t any other approach.
Argue with my professors, they’ll come around.
First the latter then the former.
Well, in high school I was a nationalist, then socialist with marxist tendencies, and now I don’t like to label myself with general ideologies. I like some libertarian ideas, but I also like some marxist ideas to.
[:D]
Probably, but libertarian dictatorship is totally contradictory. So, no, I wouldn’t recommend it.
I don’t think so. The collapse would produce some kind of socialism, or national-socialism with extreme protectionism.
No, it never was. There is no real change without revolution..
Pessimistic.
I don’t answer personal questions, I will answer questions about my beliefs if it is in the right circumstances, but I will never answer personal questions. If that’s not being “honest”, so be it.
So speaks Chief Inquisitor Liberty Student.
None of us are impartial, but we can be transparent about our biases. Those who criticize without being transparent are not very credible.
Ah yes, ad hominem.
No one is transparent, especially over the internet, there is no use pretending we are. Answering personal questions only makes it a question of personality not ideas, and I will only speak of my ideas. Nor does answering personal questions even reveal our biases.
Honestly, after stating this about me unprovoked:
you loose your right to cry “ad hominem attack”. Honestly if you are going to state that I am not of the right ideas to properly give my input in this survey, I am going to state that you are nothing but an inquisitor demanding everyone stay true to the party line.
But the first part is a strawman, and the second is an ad hom.
I never said you were not of right ideas, but that you answered the survey obviously for libertarians, when you know you are not a libertarian, and you didn’t disclose that.
What next, you answer a survey about child rearing as a parentless adult? You answer a survey about Islam when you’re a Catholic? And you don’t disclose you are parentless or a Catholic when you answer the surveys, and that is somehow something that should not be revealed to the people looking at the results of the survey?
Gimme a break. If you don’t want people to talk about how you’re pro-state, then stop being pro-state, or stop participating in discussions. But to expect that you get exceptional treatment you do not afford to others on their views is hypocritical at best.
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I started out a conservative Democrat. Found out about libertarianism, and a few years later considered myself a libertarian. I found out about mises.org about that time, and a year or two later, I had lost my faith in the state.
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Is a provisional dictatorship necessary to undo the damage? No.
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Would the collapse of society as we know it be necessary for libertarianism to get a full hearing? No. In fact, I think that is irrelevant. People need to stop obeying, in the open, and challenge the state (civil disobedience). Once the state fails, then everything else will just be a domino effect.
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Is focusing on education and changing people’s minds an approach that is fast enough to keep enough with government growth? Not by itself. There also needs to be civil disobedience.
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Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future in terms of liberty? Very optimistic. The cat is out of the bag. It is just a matter of time.
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Well first I was kind of ambiguous. I didn’t like spending for the sake of spending because hey it’s our money, but I was kind of selective with government spending. If I liked it, then I wanted it. Then I became more socialist in my persepctive I guess from my religion class my junior year of high school. What I got from that class kind of still sticks with me, but on a personal level. I can in no way defend taxation for those goals. I guess I was at a state where I saw some limited social spending as necessary. From the 2008 election though, things changed. I couldn’t support Obama, and I couldn’t support McCain. This was also around the time that I became active in political discussions on a message board that I was a part of. There were two anarcho-capitalists that really shifted me toward the libertarian position. I’ve been at this position ever since then, but I’m becoming more and more libertarian. I still can’t quite accept anarchism, but I’d say that I’m an extreme minarchist.
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No way. I’ve always been limited government because of my dad’s history (he was born in Cuba and had to flee the country due to Castro). I can never accept a dictatorship. Never.
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No, I don’t think so. I think we need to hammer points and not give up. Challenge people on their beliefs enough and they’ll have to question why they believe certain things.
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This is the only way. We can’t coerce people into thinking that coercion is wrong.
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You need popular support to end the education subsidy. That would be the turning point.
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I see libertarianism growing tremendously among the youth. Of course, American liberalism is by far dominant among young people, but the tide is turning our way.
- For those of who did not start off your life as libertarians please say a little bit about your evolution. Personally I was first a moderate Democrat due to family tradition, then what be best described as a somewhat hawkish ‘libertarian’ (P.J. O’Rourke style Republican) then I realized that the contradictions were too glaring.
(Teenage years) → authoritarian anti leftist →(led logically to) → Totalitarian rightist → (standard economics course and The Road to Serfdom) → quasi Burkian liberal conservative → (University, Law Legislation and Liberty & Mises Institute) → Hayekian Classical Liberal with strong Libertarian leanings
→ ???
- Is a provisional dictatorship necessary to undo the damage?
Only in quite desperate circumstances. A dictatorship can do so much damage to the political culture and stability that political system has to be broken already to warrant it.
- Would the collapse of society as we know it be necessary for libertarianism to get a full hearing?
That is the last thing we need. Societal collapse would just bring out the collectivist beast in everyone. In chaos people seek security not freedom. We are more likely to end up with 1984 then any kind of voluntarily utopia.
- Is focusing on education and changing people’s minds an approach that is fast enough to keep enough with government growth?
Fast enough to stop it? Not for the masses. You will be waiting forever. Unless by some freak set of events group think aims its dubious benefits in a Libertarian direction.
- Given the anti-intellectual nature of capitalism, i.e. they’re not paid as much as they’d like, how do you establish a broader base of support for libertarianism among academics given the ability of the state to use tax dollars to bribe them?
Privatise the University system & end public funding. Apart from that simply continue the work missionary work Hayek started in the 40s.
- Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future in terms of liberty?
I am optimistic about the growth of Liberal and Libertarian movements and the spread of ideas. The real world however will not see any major shifts in policy in our direction any time soon.
They are true, that is undeniable.
What is the basis for you concluding it is only for “libertarians” (whatever narrow definition you subscribe to)? After all, is not the survey for “All”? Its even in the title!
Please say, where in:
does it say that these questions are meant for “libertarians” only? Or are you imposing your own interpretation.
I’m a member of this forum, like it or no. Ergo, I can answer this survey without the grand inquisitor ensuring that everybody knows that the party-line here is that everybody must be anarchist, and if they are not they, then it will always be noted that they do not conform to the ideal.
No, Liberty Student, I do not care about what you think about my views but such comments like:
are not only unnecessarily hostile, but also in bad taste. I will always challenge the authors of such posts for they do not create a community of dialogue and intellectual discovery, which is what I thought this forum is supposed to be; instead, they work against such a community.
Do you have any evidence to back up this attack against me?
I don’t mind that you’re a member of this forum. I’ve petitioned for my share of people to be tossed, but iirc, I have defended your presence more than once.
Another strawman. If you’re pro-state, I cannot understand why you resist (and evade) making that clear and obvious. But I will point it out where you do not. Again, answering a survey that is clearly not directed at you, and then avoiding the portion where you identify your political position, is sloppy at best.
And the grand-inquisitor bit doesn’t bother me. Name calling doesn’t make me look bad.
Then stop protesting so much.
I don’t think it was hostile Lam. I think it was honest and inconvenient for you. As far as bad taste, I think being a statist is bad taste, and care about your concerns on that front, as much as you care about how I feel about statists.
What was the attack exactly?
1) For those of who did not start off your life as libertarians please say a little bit about your evolution. Personally I was first a moderate Democrat due to family tradition, then what be best described as a somewhat hawkish ‘libertarian’ (P.J. O’Rourke style Republican) then I realized that the contradictions were too glaring.
Apolitical → Fascist → Limited State Fascist → Voluntary Fascist → AnCap (with a tendency to use Fascist concepts outside of economic issues, old habits die hard)
2) Is a provisional dictatorship necessary to undo the damage?
The problem won’t give us the solution.
3) Would the collapse of society as we know it be necessary for libertarianism to get a full hearing?
Would it be necessary? I rather doubt it, if anything it’d be counterproductive. Society is the abstract concept of individuals cooperating with one another. To see it collapse would as thus mean the disruption of this cooperation and the rise of the mentality that its “all against all”. Libertarianism and affiliated ideologies require the opposite, they require that individuals recognize the usefulness of cooperation if we wish to maintain our current sanitation systems.
4) Is focusing on education and changing people’s minds an approach that is fast enough to keep enough with government growth?
One hopes so.
5) Given the anti-intellectual nature of capitalism, i.e. they’re not paid as much as they’d like, how do you establish a broader base of support for libertarianism among academics given the ability of the state to use tax dollars to bribe them?
Capitalism is anti-intellectual? When did this happen? How is that possible?
Really though, it depends on the individual person. I can see some people within the ‘intellectual camp’ who would do just fine without the state. They’re popular enough that they can continue to maintain their quality of life unchanged. Now its the leeches that do little more than join hands with the state that in for a rude awakening. The best thing I can conceive to do with the latter group is either ignore them, or ignore them. They are, for the most part, too stubborn to change their thinking or simply not worth the effort needed. I do have my time preference you know.
6) Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future in terms of liberty?
Optimistic. I would of stayed in the Fascist camp otherwise.
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I was raised in a southern, Christian family. All of my family is republican. I never paid much heed to politics or economics until my early 20s and didn’t even really know what libertarianism was. I got into learning about libertarianism and economics largely in part because of the controversial RP in the last presidential election and a general disconnect with Republicrats. Stumbled upon mises.org, started reading, listening and watching… turns out I’ve always been something of a closet-libertarian. Still learning.
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I don’t think so. The idea that one man, be it a president with unprecedented power or a dictator, has enough knowledge, wisdom and foresight to manage all aspects of a nation, from economic and monetary policy to foreign relations and domestic policy, is ridiculous to me. Aside from that, a dictatorship would presumably go against some of the core fundamentals of libertarianism in terms of morality and natural rights, as I understand it.
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Necessary? Perhaps, perhaps not. I suppose it all depends on your definition of a collapse of society in this instance. Would the Great Depression qualify as a collapse of society? Because as a result of the Great Depression, we were drawn further away from libertarianism. I’m fairly certain we’d need some kind of social shift of some sort, though I honestly don’t know how that might come about efficiently. I suppose we may be witnessing the beginnings of one now, perhaps… libertarianism and libertarian ideals seem to be spreading like wild fire these days, what with the speed and accessibility of information, especially as more and more people become irrevocably dissatisfied with the current state of partisan politics and the status quo.
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I think focusing on education and continued discussion/debat/discourse is always healthy, regardless. I don’t think there’s enough right now to keep up with growth of government, however.
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I’m not really sure, but I’m inclined to agree with other posters that they’re largely irrelevant.
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I try to stay as optimistic as possible, but I won’t lie, sometimes it is difficult with each passing day that things seem to be getting worse and worse… then again, perhaps things have to get worse before they can get better. If that is true, then perhaps the observation that things are getting worse may end up being evidence to the fact that things are on the way to the better. I don’t really let myself get discouraged, regardless of how many times I find myself arguing the same points over and over with statists and socialists… it just makes me want to learn more, if only to more thoroughly obliterate their arguments and perhaps give them pause to think about liberty as I do. I’m not sure if I’ve ever personally “converted” anyone, per se, but I know I’ve made people question their adopted philosophies and reevaluate their perspectives, which is a hopeful sign. Although, I will admit these cases are generally few and far between as far as I know.
Sorry this is going to be a long post.
(1)
- Apolitical
- blindly pro war after 9/11
- individualist (2002.aged 12)
- aged 13/14 (2003-2004) Anti-authoritarian pro death penalty Left liberal ,almost socialist but largely Apolitical.I had opinions but didn’t want them enforced .Also wavered between pro and anti war(while holding a belief in classical liberal principles especially freedom and idea of rights .weird I know.the muddle was caused by a book I read)
- (late 2004 aged 14)Searching about individualism led me to an Objectivist site(I never knew it was Objectivist I more loved the individualism since It was mostly focused on individualism)
- (2005-2007 )Eventually looked up Ayn rand and Objectivist and absorded all of it’s philosophy and elements of it’s politics(including being pro -war).It was at this point I became anti -socialism,learned what capitalism was and adopted vaguely libertarian positions.Remained Anti-anarchism due to the straw man set up by objectivists.Had heard of libertarianism but believed the lies about it.
- (2007-2008)Discovered Ron Paul on wikipedia and did some research into him.Became a radical Minarchist constitutionalist libertarian(became anti-war while retaining some objectivist ideas).Briefly flirted with the libertarian party of the UK(LPUK) and planned a career as POLITICIAN!(I must be crazy!).Read mises.org and lewrockwell.com.Had heard of anarcho-capitalism but wasn’t convinced.Became Individualist feminist.
- (2009-present)Let my membership in LPUK lapse. Read more on anarcho-capitalism. Considered it possible but unnecessary .felt scared about believing in anarchism so still clung to minarchism. Gave up Objectivism completely.Saw rothbardian/austrian philosophical ideas as far superior.Gave up minarchism and became anarchist and started learning about it and austrian economics in depth .Became a voluntaryist . Read rothbard’s piece describing organised objectivism as a cult.Changed positions on a variety of things .Completely gave up egalitarianism.Saw more clearly why minarchism was a dead end.Saw the necessity for hierarchy and authority in society in contrast to my past anti-authoritarianism.Found agreement with some ‘paleo-libertarian’ ideas while not being culturally conservative.
(2) No.It wouldn’t work and even if it could I wouldn’t want it.
(3) I’m not sure.It could be that it just brings out more statism and socialism in people.we might end up with full on hitler style fascism before long.
(4) Education is vital.More people need to know these ideas.One of the problems we face is that the mainstream ignores us to cut us out of the debate.We need to raise our problem and show we offer an alternative to both the left ,the centre and the right ( I think the internet is a great help with this,it’s just we need to draw people in on all the information available and see it we can persuade them.it’s true people will see the material and might reject it).We need to continually repeat the key principles an arguments. We need to debate people everywhere and anywhere as much as is possible,We need to continue to build and develop all areas of libertarian political philosophy and economics.We need to look at setting up voluntary alternative’s to state institutions e.g. welfare state..We also need to try to spread libertarianism worldwide especially in Europe where currently sadly it isn’t very strong.I really want to play a part in this.Possible sister Mises institutes should be set up following the eastern europe one as an example of how this could work. non violent Civil disobedience will be necessary at some point.Secession is definately a viable option.
(5) Capitalism isn’t anti-intellectual really.Bribes don’t mean they’ll follow the party line though most do.One strategy I plan to be involved in is to infiltrate the opinion moulding class e.g. media,academics etc and present our ideas to the masses-If we can have lots of libertarians writing news articles, presenting the news,on tv,on the radio etc this would be great.We need to break the hold on minds that begins with government schooling.
(6) A bit of both at times. I’m optimistic when I learn that someone has opposed some government law or program or that non libertarians are rejecting it too.Reading libertarian literature inspires me alot.I don’t think we will achieve liberty in my life time(though I hope so) but I think it will occur eventually(socialists probably felt the same way once so I guess that’s a sign of hope for us.) I get pessimistic when I think of just how statist the world is, for example that families spent their weekend at locally owned/financed leisure centres and no one thinks that’s strange or when I try to debate someone about libertarianism and they won’t listen to me because their just loudly shouting(metaphorically) “YOUR WRONG!”.I’m troubled that people are so apathetic that they don’t care about electoral politics(which is good as far as I’m concerned) but they also don’t care about political philosophy or freedom.They just live life in a bubble of ignorace.
In the end freedom outlives control.