Several Questions for You All.

Economics Political Theory
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A few questions for the members of this forum; please feel free to answer all or none of them.

  1. For those of who did not start off your life as libertarians please say a little bit about your evolution. Personally I was first a moderate Democrat due to family tradition, then what be best described as a somewhat hawkish ‘libertarian’ (P.J. O’Rourke style Republican) then I realized that the contradictions were too glaring.

  2. Is a provisional dictatorship necessary to undo the damage?

  3. Would the collapse of society as we know it be necessary for libertarianism to get a full hearing?

  4. Is focusing on education and changing people’s minds an approach that is fast enough to keep enough with government growth?

  5. Given the anti-intellectual nature of capitalism, i.e. they’re not paid as much as they’d like, how do you establish a broader base of support for libertarianism among academics given the ability of the state to use tax dollars to bribe them?

  6. Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future in terms of liberty?

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"Unless you propose putting a gun to the back of someone’s head and forcing feeding them the works of Rothbard and the like, then I would say Education is most certainly needed."

I know it’s needed, my question was if people think the average guy is learning fast enough to counteract the growth of government; can libertarian gradualism compete with Fabianism?

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  1. Non-political but went through being an anti-war democrat to old right conservatism to classic liberalism and minarchism to anarcho-capitalism to voluntarism. My political/philosophical transformation has reflected my activity online, and my offline activity as an entrepreneur.

  2. I don’t believe so. I hope not.

  3. I don’t believe so. Watch the two videos from the end of a presentation by Richard Ebeling at the Nassau Institute where he talks about the power of ideas. With the internet, and so much general distrust of the state, I think everything is lining up quite nicely for libertarian change. It just make take a generation or two.

  4. Absolutely. It is the only form of change which will endure beyond the lifetime of one generation. We have to win the battle of ideas.

  5. Bypass them. They are gatekeepers to institutions that are increasingly irrelevant each day.

  6. Until 2 months ago, I was in a bit of a malaise as I struggled to sort some things out between my ears, but I think I have found some answers, thanks to several good people from here, and I am fantastically optimistic not just about liberty, but my own life and prosperity. No one said it would be easy. No one promised utopia. If we roll up our sleeves, what greater labour can there be to toil for than knowledge, truth and peace?

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Marxist - NeoConservative - Conservative - Ron Paul Libertarian - An Cap

No.

If the voices are loud enough in relation to the spreading of liberty

Well education is a big part but just because people are education doesn’t infer that they will be libertarian.

Oh good question. I think they have to want to know an alternative. If they are happy being bribed they will continue to be bribed.

Extremely optimistic, especially considering the Ludwig von Mises institute. It is truly becoming a force of nature.

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  1. In high school considered myself moderat, but always believed that people should be free to exchange in the market. Watched Zeitgeist my senior year (graduated 07) which led me to Ron Paul and the Fed, stumbled upon Alex Jones, then LewRockwell.com and Mises.org. Sometime after watching Zeitgeist I ordered some conspiracy books and The FairTax book and The Case Against The Fed before I knew who Rothbard was. Reading that book was an eye opener. (I read The FairTax book before The Case Against The Fed, but now I see the FairTax book as, well, rubbish)

  2. I don’t want to compromise what I believe in, so I’d say no.

  3. It could be the reverse and Marxist ideas might take root. You never know what changed the end will bring.

  4. Whether or not it’s fast enough it helps. This might be minor, but I try to repost links on FaceBook from LewRockwell.com and Mises.org. This seems to help since people I’ve worked with (and family) said they are interested in what I post. My brother was conservative till Ron Paul and now considers himself libertarian (but still leans towards some neo-cons etc - Sarah Palin). Maybe I’ll get him to be an-cap one day.

  5. Keep pushing the ideas till the awaken to the idea of liberty.

  6. I’m always optimistic, I dislike pessimism, especially when it’s small, trivial matters, but I’d prefer to be optimistic than pessimistic (in terms of how I feel), but I’m just the same towards liberty.

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A commenter named J. Cortez noted on the Mises Blog: “One of the beautiful things about technological progress is that it can usually outpace governmental interference. In the current information age, that progress is exponentially more powerful. New products, services, and industries seem to be cropping up much faster than in my parent’s or their parent’s era.”

I believe that so long as the internet exists in its current form, as a medium of free exchange and, perhaps, the only functioning model of a free market in existence, then we will be okay. The minute the government starts getting their hands in our bandwidth (and there are already ominous signs of this happening) then this golden era of free expression is over, and our movement for liberty and freedom from statism will regress more than a century.

We can laugh about the government and their agents chasing us around like a bunch of witches, but it was a mere few generations ago that people who publicly expressed the ideas, or similar ideas, to the ones we express freely here would have been arrested for sedition and, possibly, executed, to the cheers of the masses.

Very pessimistic. Having lived through the tail-end days of Apartheid only to see a “free” South Africa come out the other side resembling Apartheid more than ever before does not inspire my confidence. (I recently read that the chief of police in South Africa is running an amnesty program for people to hand in firearms to the police. He stated his goal was that, one day, only agents of law enforcement would have firearms in South Africa. I’m very glad I left.)

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1) For those of who did not start off your life as libertarians please say a little bit about your evolution.

Didn’t care till 9/11. Always hated the police state and public school system. Thought I was an anti-war/anti-bush liberal until I found out that I was actually an anti-war libertarian, thanks to Ron Paul. It wasn’t long before I was a property rights ancap. I have recently rejected the idea of rights, after reading an essay someone posted on here about the myth of the rule of law. My subjective morality is that whatever the market produces is whatever is just and most efficient, no matter what.

3) Would the collapse of society as we know it be necessary for libertarianism to get a full hearing?

I don’t know if that’s what it takes, but I do know that that is exactly what we WILL get when society DOES collapse. I’ll be full of I-told-you-so’s.

4) Is focusing on education and changing people’s minds an approach that is fast enough to keep enough with government growth?

I don’t think so, but it is definitely necessary. Getting the word out is what it’s all about.

5) Given the anti-intellectual nature of capitalism, i.e. they’re not paid as much as they’d like, how do you establish a broader base of support for libertarianism among academics given the ability of the state to use tax dollars to bribe them?

It already exists. You just used it to ask this question.

6) Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future in terms of liberty?

I’m nervous about the short-term. Economic collapse seems imminent. I just hope the crash is bad enough to take the military-industrial complex/police state with it. If it doesn’t, I’m sure we can look forward to another war. I still can’t decide whether I should invest in stocks or in survivalist materials. :confused:

Ultimately, though, I think “invisible” technology (internet, computation, IT, virtual reality, nanotechnology, encryption, etc) will drastically reduce the reach and magnitude of state power, worldwide. I actually agree with what most transhumanists have to say about our future technologically, so I’m definitely optimistic. Once it becomes clear that liberty is the only mode of society effective and efficient and sustainable enough to make these technologies a reality, most people will fall in line.

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First I wasn’t very political but then would have called myself a liberal…Basically because during the Bush presidency it seemed as though all republicans and conservatives were mocked as being absolute idiots. There is also great power to the word “liberal” for any who are not particularly nationalistic. Then I moved to being a modern conservative, but the good kind… You know the ones who are really like in between minarchism and conservatism. Then I moved to moderate libertarianism that resembled Friedman after reading Rand, on to Misesian Minarchism after being introduced to AE, then to Anarchism after learning more about AE and Various anarchist thinkers. I never got really radical in any direction not based toward freedom, now I finally fully understand and advocate those measures which I proposed when I first became a conservative.

I don’t like the term “dictatorship” and it depends further upon the type of transition, it could go either way. I think the most likely is that if Voluntaryism is achieved then there will be difficulties with putting down statist rebellions at first, as well as some gangs that might take over initially but after a solid 3 years of PDFs I don’t think there will be many problems, and even within that time I believe that there will most likely be need of any sort of actual tyranny within this time period however.

No.

It all depends how things work out. As the shit starts to hit the fan there are two ways I can see it going. The first is the way of tyranny, the socialists and radical liberals begin to have overwhelming popularity, or possibly something resembling fascism arises, I consider this the most likely of the two. The second is a flourishing of libertarian ideals and popularity, minarchism and/or Voluntaryism becomes more popular and a major player. As these ideas spread like wild fire the government begins to collapse because people start actually thinking for themselves and begin to go on tax strikes and wide calls for decreases of government power the likes of which those living in the Reagan era could have only dreamed of. I don’t know, it could go either way, because quite frankly if you look around here allot of the members here are the young and rising generation, including myself, this means a combination of two things, the first is that the internet is very appealing to younger individuals and information spreads like wildfire to them through this, and that the younger generations (for whatever reason, I honestly can’t come up with any sort of decisive answer) are more inclined toward freedom. This is possibly due to the whole total loss in faith in government over the last 8 years on top of the internet playing to their inquisitive and, comparatively speaking, less brainwashed minds which tend toward the suspicion of authority.

A fair amount of intellectuals will come naturally as the ideology catches on, as for the rest of them the intellectuals have been pretty damned socialist for the last 80 years or so, and if this has only resulted in the slow degeneration of America into the state it is in now, and the Reagan era, then I’d say that it doesn’t actually matter too much, what matters is widespread public opinion

I’m sort of in the middle

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Apolitical, then skeptical of the state and the status quo. This began in 6th grade for me. :slight_smile: Didn’t get into libertarianism until a few years ago. Praise Internet.

That would defeat the whole point! :stuck_out_tongue: I don’t think so.

Not a complete collapse of society. That would be chaos. Something that would drastically change the lives of people and make them see the government as the enemy to their freedom and prosperity is enough.

I don’t know if those are good metrics for comparison. Someone who gets money from the government or makes a livelihood through government could still be exposed to, and expose libertarianism. Just as a slave can be against slavery. I just hope that if any kind of collapse happens, that people can identify the government as the enemy and not their neighbor.

Education is the #1 thing we can do. Today, I played “argue against marxism and for AnCap with a person” and he had nothing. I destroyed the labor theory of value and just left him alone with that. Now he’ll have something to dwell on. Several people in the room were intrigued by Mises’ socialist calculation problem. They always thought communism wouldn’t work because of “greed” but I exemplified subjective value and brought up how an economy can’t be directed properly without price signals. These people were stunned but interested. :stuck_out_tongue:

I’ve got to agree with LS on the point of them becoming more irrelevant. I’m among them. The more time I spend with them, the more I realize they tend to lack creativity in thought. They aren’t necessarily brilliant. They just tend to be people who were very good students. I’m not a fan.

Hard to say. I see the Internet being a good force for liberty, truth, and awesome.

I also see ignorance, apathy, and a regression to hedonism and animalistic tendencies among a lot of the youth today. A person who puts feelings before any thoughts tends to be a socialist, and sadly, there is a lack of thought to begin with. Libertarianism tends to be the philosophy of people who don’t want to defy logic and don’t use appeals to emotion for their arguments.

I think these might be two competing forces.

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Socialist (but as "goverment have to protect us from the evil coporation, not as a Marx reader). I voted for first time at 19 for my towns major. Voted to the left and they won. They did nothing of what they promised. I became uninterested on politics and from reading newspapers daily I just quit politics completely.

2 years ago just discover Ron Paul on YT randomly. His oposition to the war picked my interest and listening to him let me to study economics. I have become obsessed on monetary history ( I am a engineer, had absolutely no economic knoledge before). From studying austrian economics I became a libertarian. It was quite emotional process to get rid of all the socialist brainwashing. The mises youtube channel helped a lot, I kind of became addicted to the videos for a while.

No. It would not make any difference.

I want to believe that political change is posible, but something inside me tells me a collapse (that will come, who knows if in our lifetime) is the only way to get a libertarian society.

But on a brighter note, I believe that free zones with libertarian values could be implemented arround the world. Kind of like a independt city-state. That can happen in our lifetime.

I dont know what else to do. I have allways tried to talk to people about what I find unfair and inmoral.

Promote again the value of self reliance and “tough” (as in being able to deal with life) people, as oposed to whiners and bullshiters (intellectuals).

I am optimistic by nature.

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Pre Year 7: Social Democrat

Year 7: Marxist

Year 8: Neoliberal

Year 9: Mix of neoliberal and neoconservative

Year 10: Neofascist

Year 11: Minarchist with Objectivist elements

Year 12-Present: Unaffiliated with paleolibertarian leanings.

Please elaborate.

I think we’ll definitely see a major shift in opinion in a few years, as the globalist MSM starts heaving it’s last breaths and the academic-Keynesian establishment starts losing it’s credibility at a rate rivalling Comical Ali’s.

Where? Japan, Ghana, Somalia, the United States, China, France, Britain, Italy, Spain, Russia?

I’m going to second LibertyStudent on this one. Demagogues and shills like Krugman are in the same quandary as Soviet propagandists in the 1980’s.

I doubt Barack will be reelected, instead he will be revealed as an empty suit during 2011. After David Cameron proves little better than Gordon Brown, either the UKIP or BNP are elected, radically changing British society. Either a colossal war (and a spending cut ala WWII afterwards) or the election of a charismatic classical liberal leader will lead to economic recovery in 2019-2020, if current porkulus spending continues.

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Society cannot be molded like clay to anyone’s wishes, even a libertarian’s.

Times of crisis tend to breed totalitarianism, not liberalism.

Education is not a winning strategy, it can attract disciples, but it will not result in any political victory.

Capitalism is neither anti-intellectual, nor are academics simply bribed by tax-dollars. I find academic discussion to be fresh air compared to non-academic discussion on topics like economics and politics.

Pessimistic about the absolute ideal, but I have more liberty than the vast majority of humanthat have ever walked upon Earth, so in that sense I am optimistic about the future.

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I was a radical against the status quo, but I didn’t like any of the options offered.

You don’t. You pick your battles.

I think we will get our shot to put our foot where our mouth is. That is enough for me to look forward to.

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#1 As I’ve said before, I went from platonic fascist to paleocon to free marketer.

#2 Dictatorships have much to commend but you’ll never find me arguing for another state, so I would say that no a provisional dictatorship cannot provide a long-term healing of liberty.

#3 Probably but libertarianism doesn’t need to be heard by all to win.

#4 Education is eternally important but even if it doesn’t keep pace with state growth (which I’m counting on) I’m pretty sure government power will be enough to wreck society to the point where the state will be irrelevant.

#5 Like others said, pick your battles.

#6 I am realistically optimistic in that I don’t think freedom will exist in my lifetime but I do think that at some point, it will happen.

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@CC, wanted to point out that Lam replied, but he is not a libertarian or an anarchist. He’s pro-state. Why he responded, when the questions were clearly towards libertarians, is beyond me.

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Shun the non-believers.

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"

CrazyCoot:
2) Is a provisional dictatorship necessary to undo the damage?

Please elaborate."

Sean Gabb interviewed Paul Gottfried, it’s on Google Video, who said that a ‘provisional dictatorship’ was necessary, at least in the case of Sweden, to correct the accumulation of socialism. Gottfried is a conservative, if I’m not mistaken, but I was wondering if his words ring true for classical liberalism/ancap as well.

Re capitalism and anti-intellectualism; by anti-intellectualism I don’t mean populist or “anti-pointyhead” but compare what a teacher at a private school makes with what a teacher at a public school makes.

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Gottfried is not even a consistent conservative on this. I remember he spoke up for Atatürk at Taki Mag and when I pointed out in the comments section that Atatürk was a farthest thing from a conservative - a progressive Jacobin that waged war on tradition and religion and had the state prescribe everything from attire people should wear to names that can be given to newborn - he responded that it basically does not matter because he succeeded in establishing Turkey as a strong, modern nation. So like the Maoists and the like he at the end of the day cares more about the final result than the means.