The "dollars value has dropped 95% since the inception of the FED" statement.

I hear this statement from many people in regards to the incompetence of the FED, and I have used it as well. But is this really a good argument? Or is it just really grandstanding with a good Stat? I realize its not good to have your currency fall 95%, but when during that same time incomes have risen largely as well, does it really matter if a currency drops but incomes rise at the same amount. I was having this discussion with a friend, but really couldnt back up my 95% statement, for why it really matters.

Or does this go back to inflation is only good for the first people who get the new money supply before the prices rise and the currency falls?

What should I read? How should I respond.

It matters because if it has lost 95% of its value, then what makes them think it is not only a matter of time before the same happens to the other 5%?

A 95% drop in the dollar means that saver would have gotten wiped out.

If a person doesn’t have any wealth in dollars, it won’t matter to them.

i have asked the same question and never received much of a response. i am fairly certain that some of the posters here and at lrc lie about the current money system and its effects…to what extent i am not exactly sure though.

from what i read about pulling gold/silver out of the ground it would seem that giving up gold/silver in the hopes that you could get more back would lead to far fewer fiat paper-money/bank credit induced problems (of the widespread variety) and likely far fewer economic ‘cycles’ altogether.

now whether the current central bank/frb system that has been described to me (hopefully not lied about) has actually sped up various economic projects benefitting many, i am not completely sure.

“when prices are adjusted for inflation, Americans today spend '40% less on clothes, 20% less on food, more than 50% less on appliances, about 25% less on owning and maintaining a car’than they did during the early 1970s. Over that same period, Census Bureau tables show, US median household income rose by at least 18% in constant dollars . . .”

did this happen in spite of govt money meddling and the episodes of harmful inflation???

http://blog.mises.org/archives/010741.asp

now i know there is gab about savings rates near zero and such…and i am not sure sure if a commodity money, such as existed earlier would provide similar living standards as today along with greater capital savings that now exist.

it seems that all the writings and crap spoken of here have come down to this –

“What’s wrong with inflation in the present American context is that people are forced to accept Federal Reserve Notes as legal tender. In a world where people are free to use any money they want, and the producer of a paper money doesn’t enter into a contract saying he won’t inflate, there would be nothing wrong with inflation.”

http://blog.mises.org/archives/009424.asp#c649129

this may be true inpart. if a scientist could have known before hand to not do all of the trial and error, i expect he wouldnt have…if it could be known then when inflation harms and when it doesnt, then inflation woulndt be i problem.

my feeling is that the commodity money with limited industrial uses but ideal for storage and calculation would be superior to ‘babies pulled form incubators’ govt managed money.

You are correct. Unfortunately, many people do - I think hundreds of millions of people do.

This argument about the other 5% was my only comeback. I said something to the effect of any fiat system eventually makes the worth 0, thus the other 5% is coming eventually. Cant raise incomes enough to combat a currency worth 0.

Lol, true. I guess they don’t realize that.

It is going to matter even to them when hyperinflation hits. You can not have a market without money. Luckily there will be foreign currencies to help out (so it won’t go down to barter) but it is still going to be a giant hiccup.

What have you read so far? Have you read these?

What Has Government Done to Our Money? http://mises.org/books/whathasgovernmentdone.pdf

The Inflation Crisis http://mises.org/books/inflationcrisis.pdf

What You Should Know About Inflation http://mises.org/books/inflation.pdf

Well, there are plenty of resources here at Mises that should answer your questions, one way or the other. If people are lying to you, and you say you are fairly certain they are, why don’t you go around them and study the source literature on these subjects yourself? It seems to me that you are relying on internet postings to answer your questions, and this has not resulted in a satisfactory resolution for you (these are very good questions, by the way). If I thought people were lying to me, I’d go somewhere else, but that’s just me.

I infer the following from the above: 1) The U.S. currency has lost 95% of its value since 1913, 2) Prices for the items listed above are down, median household income is up, 3) millions of people have wealth that could be in danger, but, this wealth exists in spite of the inflation.

So, does this mean that more wealth would have been created had the Fed wiped out 96% of the dollar’s purchasing power? How about 98%? 99%? 99.9%? Is there a connection between the destruction of purchasing power and wealth creation?

I’d say the 95% loss of value caused by the Fed illustrates the magnitude to which Americans (or anyone with US dollar assets) have been taxed in stealth and literally stolen from over the past century. The 95% doesn’t really demonstrate the incompetence of the Fed (that can be seen with every downturn not to mention their flawed reasoning), because they’re inflating the currency intentionally. Unless you buy into their “war against inflation” propaganda, in that case they are doing pretty bad huh? [:P] It takes quite a skilled pack of liars to be able to claim that they are fighting the very problems they are causing (the Federal gov is even better at playing that game).

It shouldn’t be difficult to find sources explaining the negative effects of inflation - that’s basically what you’re asking about. I think just about any ATBC book you pick up would have to get into it at some point.

One big reason our fiat currency inflation is bad is because it discourages (or can even prohibit) saving, more specifically underconsumption. By encouraging spending and (some may say wasteful) consumption in the present at the expensive of savings and investment for the future, the growth of our economic prosperity is being undermined. But there’s so much more to the subject that I can’t do it justice here.

I have trouble making reading recommendations because I’ve read enough that it all kind of blends together, but I believe one of Peter Schiff’s books would be a nice easy to read intro to the topic. Or try a google for some of his youtube vids.

Who? What would make you think this? That’s a pretty extreme statement…

i havent met them. anyone can use any name online and i wouldnt know their identity.

but if the dollar value has fallen 95% and you have 95% more dollars per unit of labor or what have you…why go on saying the 95% drop in value is a problem (as i have seen on mises sites and lrc) if you have 95% more dollars?

as i posted earlier, is this just an economic freedom issue or can someone really show where a commodity money and banking more geared to fully backed reserves would be more beneficial than the current ‘when prices are adjusted for inflation’ scheme.

similar living standards with additional capital savings resulting from gold/silver money?

historically, it seems that when specie was factionally reserved upon (if what i have read is true) there were more problems than when cheapo paper is fractionally reserved upon.

If this is what you have seen on “mises sites and lrc”, then I would say it is complete nonsense and it should be disregarded. I, for one, have never read anything like this and I have been studying the subject on Mises.org for over a year.

Well.. 95% depreciation is good/bad depending on the time frame we’re talking about… did it happen over a couple of years or a couple of hundred years?

I also got to thinking about it, if year over year price inflation is like 3%, so long as it doesn’t take too long ([=]years) for wages to also be bid up then over the long run the fed is only stealing 3% of our GDP per year. (yeah, ‘only’). Or if price levels and wage levels rose practically at the same time, the fed would hardly be able to make any money at all. It wouldn’t matter if the currency depreciated a trillion-fold.

A typical American working today at the average hourly wage of $17.50 works about seven minutes to buy a gallon of gas for $2.10. In contrast, the average worker in the 1930s worked more than 20 minutes to buy a gallon of gas. During the 1940s, it took 12 minutes of work. During the 1950s, it took about 10 minutes per gallon.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-05-31-gas-prices-edit_x.htm

"I also got to thinking about it, " are you an econ student or somone who doenst know much economics at all…be honest if you can.

how would the fed steal gdp?

does the fed just buy assets that the banks already owned and destroy the money it somehow gets?

“and i am not sure sure if a commodity money (tending toward fully backed reserves), such as existed earlier would provide similar living standards as today along with greater capital savings that now exist.”

can anyone show this to be the case?

I’ve seen similar arguments as well. “What does it matter?” “The Chicken Little’s run around crying about the Fed and how the dollar has lost 95% of its value and yet incomes have gone up even more as has our standard of living…” “Would you really rather go back to days of horse and buggy and $29 gold?”

I think those arguments are fallacious, however. I think that it might be the fallacy of confusing cause and effect.

Think about a situation where someone had been on a roll since graduating from college. He got involved in an exercise program improving his strength endurance and flexibility in the process. He also did well in his profession, growing in knowledge and skills and had gotten a number of promotions and raises in salary and bonuses. But then he finds out he has a tapeworm. The doctor estimates he had it for 10 years or so. The doctor prescribes him some medicine to kill the tapeworm and rid him of this curse.

Would it make sense if some friends of his who had heard of his woes to try and talk him out of taking the medicine? After all, look at where he has gone since he got the tapeworm. Would he want to give up those promotions and raises? That might be his lucky tapeworm, and he’d better do what he can to protect it rather than get rid of it.

I think we really need to try and figure out whether the Fed has been a boon or a hindrance to the economy.

I think it is a false dichotomy to say we need to choose between where we are today with the Federal Reserve private banking cartel in charge of creating our money in an alliance with the Federal Government that they are funding, OR going back to the pre-1913 era.

The Fed didn’t invent vaccines for polio or cures for malaria and other dread diseases, nor computers, fax machines, the internet, jets airplanes, nuclear power, etc. It is absurd to give them credit for any and all advances in knowledge and technology since they came onto the scene.

I personally consider the Fed to be a parasite upon the economy and that growth has come despite their presence rather than because of it. We would be better off yet, had we had steady, sustainable growth rather than a seesawing back and forth boom and bust business cycle.

The Fed banking cartel siphons off their unholy profits via creating money out of thin air. That of course leads to inflation. Inflation is not good for business. Not long ago, I picked up a copy of Benjamin Graham’s “The Intelligent Investor” at the recommendation of several people. It’s considered a classic in the field. He contradicted what a number of investment advisors have claimed when they say that stocks are a good hedge against inflation. To an extent that may be true, but he had a few tables showing that when inflation took off, businesses often did relatively poorly. He also claimed that even though they seemed to recover some years later one needed to look beyond earnings per share. He noted that even though profitability did seem to catch back up to the newer inflated rate, (ie. if inflation had gone up by 7% or 8% per year for awhile, eventually profits started to catch back up), the companies were often in much shakier financial condition. They had grown the profitability but had taken on additional debt. His conclusion was that inflation was bad for businesses.

That makes intuitive sense to me. In an inflationary environment businesses are constantly having to negotiate and renegotiate prices with customers, suppliers and employees. Think of all the strikes companies must endure when prices are rising and labor unions are trying to renegotiate earlier contracts. Then when they finally get things settled their, the employees at a supplier’s factory go on strike and they get hit again. Similarly, I remember many years ago listening to my father explaining to customer after customer why their prices were rising so much. He certainly had valid reasons and most of his customers eventually came to accept the price hikes, but a lot of time was spent doing all of the explaining which could have been used far more productively.

It also makes planning a lot more uncertain and hence risky. Projections are always fraught with a new sometimes wildly fluctuating variable. How much inflation should a builder include in his cost projections when bidding on a new project that might take a few years to complete?

There was also a lot of waste with people buying things they wouldn’t have purchased otherwise, but they wanted to do so before prices jumped even further. Why put your money in savings if you can’t buy as much with it later, even with interest?

I remember reading that Argentina was a major world power prior to WWII but got itself into trouble with massive debts and a central bank that began to monetize that debt. Inflation turned into hyper-inflation and was instrumental in wiping their economy out. Argentina is an extreme case, but there are many other examples of countries that got completely out of control as their central banks found it only too easy to print money, especially as their debts grew.