The First Church of Mises

@Aristippus: The argument could be put in the form of Zeno’s paradox thusly?: Whenever a man attains a real end, no matter how satisfied he may be in the moment, there will always remains some other ends (if nothing else, bodily needs) which will arise in the future, thus marring the perfection of the moment through the anticipation of future want… hence, every move towards ataraxia is only a partial approach to it. Therefore, no matter how many moves a man may make towards ataraxia (ala Zeno’s paradox), he will yet remain short of it.

Clayton -

Well, your analogy is actually more in line with Zeno’s paradox of Achilles and the tortoise. I was saying something different: that man is perturbed by his imagined future and past path, but he is nevertheless always only existing at one point. From the perspective of that single point of the journey, disregarding the other points, man cannot be harmed by any mental pain - he can only be hurt by physical pain. It seems to me that it is for this reason that the Cyrenaics focused on the alleviation of physical pain and the acquisition of physical pleasure, due to the momentary nature of feeling; since mental pain can only exist in reference to the past or the future, it has no place in the present moment, and since man can only exist in a series of present moments, it has no place at all. Thus, by understanding existence as always occurring in the moment - like the different points along the flight of Zeno’s arrow - the Cyrenaics focused on the best measure of physical feeling, since the latter can and does exist in the moment.

@Aristippus: My mistake - I always confuse Zeno’s paradoxes with each other.

I am hesitant about this conception of mental pain, it’s too purified. Consider an amputee with an imaginary itch in his leg. He is clearly suffering and it is a present suffering and it is wholly mental. And I don’t think that is just an isolated exception, I think that psychological anguish can be wholly present, i.e. without respect to a present physical pain and without respect to anything about the past or future.

Clayton -

Weren’t there movements in pre-WWII Germany to revive German paganism? People always associate this with the SS nowadays but my understanding is that the Nazis were just hijacking pre-existing popular movements for their nationalistic appeal (i.e. the German religion, as opposed to the Christian religion (which had been soiled by the Jews)).

I’m curious to learn more about these kinds of movements because I guess what I’m really interested in is a kind of “return to religious roots”, whether it be paganism, astrology, or whatever. This return-to-roots could be based on local geography (as in the German paganism movement), ancient history (as in astrology) or something else. The primary interest in religious originalism is as a counterpoint to secularism as the alternative to dominant, statist religions. I really, really think that secularists have miscalculated in thinking that religion is some kind of “third-wheel” of human nature which can summarily dispensed in the march to greater future enlightenment.

Religion is here to stay. The question is whether the values being disseminated by religions are pro-state, pro-war, pro-centralization and anti-market… or not. I think a return-to-roots is a bigger threat to the status quo than doing a root-canal operation to extract religion from human nature.

Clayton -

Well, I would class that as physical.

I’m not sure whether that is true (or whether it’s false). Care to elaborate further? Based on pure introspection, I would say that mental pain necessarily has a past or future reference. Perhaps there are exceptions.

Clayton - have you read Hume’s essay The Epicurean? It might be something to include.

@Clayton

I was rereading your list of philosophers that you are quoting for your book. Anyway, my recent discussion with Minarchst made me realize that I hadn’t seen Hillel or Maimonides on your list! So, I am going to go read some material on them (maybe by them if I feel particularly scholarly), and I am going to find some good things for you to add. And you will add them! And then we can call your book The Protocols of the Elders of Libertopia. And then we can take over the world.

Clayton, the Neopagan movement in general might provide you with some avenues of research. Two good histories are Ronald Hutton’s “Triumph of the Moon” (British Neopaganisms) and Margot Adler’s “Drawing Down the Moon”, which focuses on American Neopaganisms but is on the oldish side. There is also the website of Ár nDraíocht Féin, an American Neopagan Druid/Indo-European Reconstructionist organization.

@Clayton

So, I did some reading, and I found some good one liners in the Pirkei Avot, and now I’m reading The Eight Chapters of Maimonides on Ethics. There is some good stuff in here. The only thing that gets me is that all these Rabbis keep bringing things back to Judaism and rituals and prayers! On the bright side, it makes it easy to pare things down for you to consider.

When I’m done reading these I’m going to figure out a good way to list them for you (or others) to read. I’ll cut and paste if I have to, but the Pirkei Avot is so short, so I might be able to actually just list chapter and verse and provide a link.

Anyway, I doubt they really have much to offer that you haven’t already found in many of the other philosophers, but it might be nice to round it out with some of these, as surely there will be Jews (religious or not) who are interested in libertarianism.

That’s been the plan all along. Bwahahahaha

No. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_shielding “As of 2008[update], no experiment was successful in detecting positive shielding results.”

Really, there are people posting a lot of absurd crackpottery here regarding gravity and “electromagnetic” solar systems. I wonder how many people see this nonsense and get turned off of this website.

Let’s go on a physics forums somewhere and introduce them to the labor theory of value and the economic benefits of broken windows.

Clearly you need to keep studying. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptune - “Neptune was the first planet found by mathematical prediction rather than by empirical observation. Unexpected changes in the orbit of Uranus led Alexis Bouvard to deduce that its orbit was subject to gravitational perturbation by an unknown planet.”.

Also, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_resonance

This and the Blavatsky thread are meant for grown-ups, people mature enough to entertain extended hypothetical discussion without prematurely ejaculating on some dogma or other.

As for turning people off, I don’t think I could be clearer that plasma cosmology is a minority view in astrophysics and that my own embellishments thereon are, well, my own.

*shrug - so what?

OK? Your point?

Clayton -

it will be weird to clap our hands and sing gospel worship songs about property rights, prices, speculators, and bashing the central bank.

i lift my hands to believe again

that the free market will slay the government

oh i hold out my heart to the gold standard

oh my money, oh my money…

fuck the central bank slay that dam beast

i love the freedom and hail austrian economics

mises is great blah blah blah

no. just… no.

or maybe thats not what you were thinking, i guess it would be cool to awesome concerts that are actuallly catchy, that bash the central bank, and talk about austrian vs mainstream views (keynes vs hayek, parliament of fools,)

and maybe have some plays about austrian economics..

Starting a school would be nice.

Daniel Dennett on Universal Unitarian hymns, “I know and love the Unitarians, but I don’t like the words to their hymns. The words are so insipid I can’t stand them. I’d rather sing the good old ripsnortin’ words and then put a little flashing light over the pulpit that says “metaphor.””

His view of how to replace religion:

I mostly agree with his ideas and a lot of the ideas in this thread are inspired by this speech.

Clayton -

@Aristippus: That was awesome.

My idea is very similar but doesn’t necessarily entail living in closer proximity than required to be able to meet in person on a regular basis. This provides the basis for an informal social network that can work around the State through relationships built on extra-legal trust. But it’s nice to hear that there are already people out there who are effectively doing this, whatever their background may be.

Clayton -

Have you had a look at this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Virtues:_A_Treasury_of_Great_Moral_Stories

@Aristippus: Added to my book list.


LRC linked to this totally awesome article that is perfectly in line with this thread… the only difference is that I would like to see a “historically/culturally-guided/(voluntary) expert-assisted” version of this. I’m all for running experiments of your own devising but I think the economical scientist tries to avoid reinventing the wheel as much as possible. Given that as many as 100 billion people have lived out their entire lives before us, there is a great deal of knowledge out there about how to live life, the hard part is finding and applying it (this is where voluntary experts can assist).

Clayton -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_hack

I’m contemplating writing a little Perl script to act as a “digital butler” … I need to learn how to set up a local email server so I can get it to send me nudges like this (h/t to above-linked article).

Clayton -

Fascinating stuff. I can only find the 1875-following videos, would like to see the period from the late 17-th century onward… oh well.

In the grand scheme of history, the gutting of the aristocracy is merely a stepping stone to global unification. A dukedom (particularly in England) is a territory that was once its own realm, governed by its own sovereign king. After subjugation to a national king, the ruler of that territory is now referred to as “duke” instead of “king”, as it once was.

The King clearly has an interest in stoking anti-aristocratic populism if he can managed to obsolete them by regimenting society (thus easing the burden of governance) and bureaucratizing (thus obsoleting the need for middle-management). In fact, I think this is related to Hoppe’s account of the State - his view is that the State is rooted in an alliance of renters seeking to escape their rents and throwing off the shackles of the land-owners. No doubt. But how could the renters possibly have been more organized than the owners since there are so fewer owners (thus, easing organization)? I think the answer is that the Crown actively undermines its aristocracy to whatever extent it can manage through stoking popular discontent in demand of increased taxation (look at the effects of the death tax on the aristocracy, mentioned in the video). Personally, I don’t accept Hoppe’s theory as an explanation of the origins of the State but I do think it definitely explains the origins of democracy, communism and populism as well as the decline of the aristocracy and the capitalist class.

The aristocracy are not good in that they are wannabe crowns. Nevertheless, they are less bad than the Crown in that they are closer to those they rule. And the more competition between rulers and the easier it is for the ruled to switch between rulers (political unification always makes this harder, not easier), the better it is for the ruled.

Being pro-aristocracy is confused with being pro-privilege - while the aristocracy did indeed enjoy privilege, they were, nevertheless, a check on the power of the Crown. That check has been all but removed in the name of “democracy”. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that the interpretation of democracy as the rise of freedom and the decline of privilege is precisely backwards from the case in fact. What people don’t understand is that the royals are as exclusive with respect to the aristocracy as the aristocracy is with respect to commoners. There is very little inter-mixing (it is difficult for an aristocrat to marry up into Royalty). The rise of democracy has exactly coincided with dramatically increased political aggregation (trending toward world government). I think it’s more than coincidence, I think there is a causal connection.

For the same reasons I would like to see State governors empowered and Washington, DC shut down, I think that we need to look at reviving the aristocracy as a way to once again put the Crown in check. Greece once actively sought a foreign monarch. It is a perverse kind of logic but there is a logic to it. We are being exploited by the natural elites of exploitation/parasitism. The problem is more complex than just security and law because human nature is complex and bizarre. Unless you have your own, home-grown ruler, it makes sense to seek a ruler to protect you from the exploitation of other rulers. He has an incentive to preserve the capital value of the assets of the realm and, as someone who is a member of the ruling Elite, he understands the dangers and wiles of external powers.

Fixed political structures make this kind of wheeling and dealing impossible. It “thins” the market in rulers. Fixed political structures remind me of cell-phone contracts. They give you this really great deal on a phone, up-front, but in order to get it, you have to sign this contract that goes on and on for perpetuity.

So, maybe we need to court nobility from regions with a strong cultural heritage of property rights to come over here and rule at the State level. Perhaps they can help us break the fetters of Washington, DC. Yes, they will still be parasites, too, but at least they’re smaller and closer than Washington, DC.

Clayton -