The Libertarian Running Track

Once again, Gene Callahan exposes the flawed nature of Rothbardian libertarianism: http://gene-callahan.blogspot.com/2010/05/libertarian-running-track.html

I have suggested that this is the logical form of the argument anarcho-capitalists make against the legitimacy of the State has the following form:

  1. The State is unjust.

  2. Private property is just.

  3. True, both institutions involve coercion, but the difference is:

  4. The State’s coercion is aggressive, which is what makes it unjust.

  5. The coercion required to maintain private property is only defensive, which is what makes it just.

  6. How do we differentiate this defensive nature of coercion that protects private property from the aggressive nature of the coercion that maintains the State?

  7. See 1) and 2)!

When I point out that this is a bit circular, the only answer I have been given is that I should try a few more laps around the track, and see if I don’t get it then. To be fair, some people also have suggested I attempt starting my laps from a different part of the track; one ancap, for instance, just suggested to me that I might like starting from around 4) and 5) better than starting from 1) and 2). And some people seem to hold that 4) and 5) are simply self-evident.

Well, let me set out two examples that, I think, show just how non-self-evident 4) and 5) are. Now, I don’t hold these examples out astypical of State activity or the behavior of property owners, but they don’t need to be to make my point, as the ancap contention is not that State coercion is often unjust, but that it is inherently unjust.

Scenario 1

I own a large farm. Every year, I let some fields like fallow. Since the farm is large, I like to survey it with my field glasses. Today, I spot a bunch of durned hippies out sunbathing – nude!! – in one of my fallow fields. I hop in my foub-by-four and drive out to the filed.

“Hey, you durned hippies!” I yell. “Get off the sods, mods!”

Their spokesperson replies, “Yo, dude, chill out. We ain’t hurting nothing. This field is unused right now, and we’ll stay away from your crops.”

“But this is my land, and I want you off it!”

“Yo, dude, I never agreed to these stupid property lines. It’s God’s earth, not yours, and we can wander where we want, so long as we’re doing no harm.”

“OK, I’m calling the cops private ancap security service!”

Scenario 2

I live in a small city-state on the coast of Greece. I hear the Athenians are coming to kill all of the men and enslave the women and children because we refused to join the Delian League. At the behest of our αρχον I organize the resistance. I come to the house of a man I know to be too old to fight, but who has a large weapons cache. “Roderikes,” I tell him, “the archon has commanded me to requisition your weapons to use in protecting our lives and liberties from the Athenians!”

“Nah, you know, I just polished my stuff, and I really don’t want it all nicked up.”

“But Roderikes, if we are unable to turn back the Athenians, it won’t be just your weapons that are all nicked up – it will be you as well.”

“No, I don’t think so.”

So I command the men with me to seize the weapons despite the unwillingness of Roderikes to surrender them voluntarily.

Now, it strikes me that the use of coercion in Scenario 2 is, prima facie, much more justified than in Scenario 1. QED, the ancap assertion of 4) and 5) above is unwarranted.

The circle is not unbroken, and there is no better ancap home in the sky, Lord, in the sky.

While property rights allows an individual to dictate terms revolving around his property, the state can dictate terms around other people’s property. That is the difference. If you want to claim that property rights are illegitimate, then that’s an entire separate issue.

As far as I can tell, you’re just saying “start from point five now”. You need something to justify your claim to said property in order to “get off the track” so to speak.

As far as I can tell, you’re just saying “start from point five now”. You need something to justify your claim to said property in order to “get off the track” so to speak.

I just differentiated between the two types of coercion based on the concept of property rights. While an individual can coerce others by denying them rights to his property, the government uses a monopoly on force to coerce others by denying them of their own property. If what you’re asking for is how do we legitimize property rights then ask that, but as far as the points provided in the opening post I don’t see circular logic. I just see an unwillingness to accept the fact that the entire argument falls back on the legitimacy of property rights.

If you want to accuse libertarians (not just anarchists, because all libertarians believe in the concept of property rights) of not justifying their right to property, then that’s fine.

EDIT: Talking about property rights, what’s the best libertarian defense of (in book form)?

Well, in this case, what strikes me is exactly the opposite of what strikes you. Assertions 4) and 5) are the only consistent way of resolving conflicting strokes of fancy such as ours. I live with my strikes, you with yours, and we enter into exchanges of ANY kind ONLY if we both voluntarily agree to do so. Live, and let live. Occam’s Razor. And so on…

I’m not particularly impressed with the article and the dumb examples. Why go all the way to ancient Greece, when you can simply state that using coercion to take $20B of Bill Gates’ money and feed the hungry of the world “strikes” you as much more justified than doing nothing?

Z.

But you need to provide support for the alleged right of an individual to unconditionally claim some piece of property as his own. Unless you do that you’re still on the running track; you’re just asserting that he does have some right to that property.

But you need to provide support for the alleged right of an individual to unconditionally claim some piece of property as his own. Unless you do that you’re still on the running track; you’re just asserting that he does have some right to that property.

How many libertarian scholars have tried to legitimize property rights? I haven’t personally read anything on the topic, but doing a quick search on the Mises Store brings up a few hits, including Hoppe’s Economics and Ethics of Private Property. Maybe you should start there.

Lockean homesteading privision. Its pretty clear this guy doesn’t understand Libertarianism. Not that i’m endorsing it or anything…

If you accept such arguments of “circularity”, then you can’t even differentiate between any form of theft or robbery from any peaceful voluntary exchange. Callahan is not exposing any flaw in the nature of Rothbardian libertarianism, but is now putting forward an argument that can be used against any attempt to establish a code or philosophy of ethics.

It’s complete nonsense. It’s basically saying: You can’t prove that the fruit of your labor, or even your own body belongs to you, and not to the first fellow who comes along and wishes to arbitrarily claim it.

Why is the land that we live on our property instead of the property of the state?

Just because it is uncomfortable to hold does not make it incorrect.

Why is the land that we live on our property instead of the property of the state?

What is “the state”? Is it some omnipotent being? I’m not sure how a non-existent object can own anything. Or, do you mean the collective property of the bureaucracy which makes up the state? Seems to be the same exact question of who says I don’t own someone else’s property.

The people composing it.

No, because then I would be assuming what stuff is whose property, which was my question.

No, my question involved agnosticism to what stuff is whose property. Notice that I said “the land that we live on”, not “the land that is our property”.

“Why is the land that we live on our property instead of the property of the state?”

Judge by the consequences of it not belonging to individuals and you will get your answer: theft, murder, rape, etc… and of course impoverishment.

Unless you are looking for some other divine reason. In which case, you basically refute libertarianism on the basis of the fact that some deity has not yet personally come down and declared all those things to be wrong. In the mean time, let’s have socialism.

No, because then I would be assuming what stuff is whose property, which was my question.

Your question was, “Why isn’t it property of the state?” If it’s property of the state, and we accept that the state is “the people composing it”, then property of the state must be collectively owned by the people who compose the state.

No, my question involved agnosticism to what stuff is whose property. Notice that I said “the land that we live on”, not “the land that is our property”.

No, you asked why the land isn’t property of the state. If it’s property of the state were are no longer being “agnostic” towards that.

I thought that you were offering that as my definition of “the state”. I misunderstood you, apparently.

When did I say that it is the property of the state?

The consequences are bad from our perspective but good from theirs. Why are we more important? The words “theft”, “murder”, and “rape”, imply that the victims of those acts own something. But whether they own those things was the question. So citing those as reasons is jumping back onto “the libertarian running track”.

Sure.

But that would have bad consequences from our perspective. (Not contradicting myself here.)

You did:

Why is the land that we live on our property instead of the property of the state?

If you are taking an agnostic position wouldn’t your question simply be, “Why is it our property?” You are not being agnostic if the alternatives are either the individual or the state.

Are you seriously claiming that libertarians have failed to give any arguments to support their theory of justice and property rights?

Are you seriously claiming that libertarians have failed to give any arguments to support their theory of justice and property rights?

I’m saying something that I would have thought a self described thick libertarian would find agreeable, a lot of the justifications of libertarian property rights are unsatisfactory precisely because they don’t address any of the broader issues of justice.