The main argument for statism is that it is necessary to regulate and enforce morality on others.

National security is still an issue that needs to be addressed by the market but it isn’t as much of a problem now that we have all of these NGOs participating in foreign policy stuff and more private military firms now.

I was just thinking about the myth told by people like James Madison, William Godwin, and many other people even well-intentioned people like Ludwig Von Mises that because we aren’t perfect so we need government. This idea comes from the notion that the state should always be intervening in our troublesome affairs. It’s quite clear that we need some central authority figure to determine the laws and to be an arbiter as to the conduct of human affairs. But you don’t necessarily need a state for that. Private courts have proved successful when they have had the enforcement and backing of the police. You could apply that law-enforcement with the backing of the police model to a private system that isn’t ran by the state and it could still work.

Arguing that people need the government to enforce the laws is one thing. But arguing that the government is there because people are imperfect and that people are naturally evil is assuming that the government is the only remedy and that they want to enforce certain restrictions on human behavior. These authors that espouse these opinions may mean well but what they fail to realize is the natural tendency of the state, and that tendency is to create many meaningless arbitrary regulations or orders telling us what we can or cannot do (with the exception of Holland).

The state for the most part tends to impose strict moral guidelines on a state-by-state line, at least with the United States. In other parts of the world the states discriminate against other people based on where they come from or what people they are.

One argument in favor of these restrictions upon human behavior would be that there needs to be a lot of legislation because you don’t know what will harm other people or what will not so you can’t distinguish between them. That you’d have to paint a broad brush and make everything illegal. Something is either wrong or right. If it’s wrong you can’t do it. This is also an argument made by well-meaning people who claim to be for small-government but in reality they wish to impose their moral views on everyone else.

These people don’t really wish for people to be free and have freedom of association or freedom of mobility. These are unthinkable concepts in their minds. The reason why these people are still so attached to the state is that they believe that they need complete control of human behavior in these certain areas they consider bad, and if humans don’t act in these certain accepted norms, that society will end up in chaos. In other words, the state is the enforcer of morality.

They don’t want people to use drugs not because of health reasons but because they primarily believe that it’ wrong of them to do so). In an anarchical system if someone wanted to build a mosque on their own property they could very well do it. It’s all about individual choices.

ANARCHISM DOESN’T MEAN LAWLESSNESS. There could very well be a bill of rights securing people from various different corporations that might exploit them or from the potential seeds of abuse that could occur from in a society without a central governing agency. People would just have more freedom of association and would have more of the freedom to do the things they wanted to do. If someone wanted to build a mosque they could do it on their own yard.

IN MY VIEW AN-CAP SHOULDN’T BE THE ONLY ECONOMIC SYSTEM THAT EXISTS IN AN ANARCHICAL STATE OR PLACE. There should be many different kinds of economic systems that exist. Mutualism could very well exist in a capitalist environment. There could be unionism. Anarchism is all about individual choice. I don’t believe that this individual choice for anarchism should be forced on the population, and that’s why I think it should be done through a constitutional amendment.

NATIONS HAVE DISSOLVED THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT THROUGH VIOLENT PROTEST IN THE PAST, so to believe that people of a nation wouldn’t choose to dissolve it maybe for a temporary time, or for as long as they feel like, because they wouldn’t do it is prepostorous and a denial of history. If people wanted limited government for more freedom why wouldn’t they want anarchism which would provide them for even more?

Those are my thoughts on the subject. I’ve become completely disillusioned with minarchism and I am hoping that other people will share my similar disillusionment with minarchism. These minarchists mean well but they have no idea about how the state really works in reality and how their goals are a practical utopia.

At least anarchism has been tried in reality. Minarchism may have existed thousands of years ago. But it’s not really possible to have a minarchist state and fighting the war on terror in a global-scale like this, and not even that, but to have all of these moral guidelines in place as well.

Excellent post. I especially like what you said about even if people are naturally immoral, why are people so quick to say a state is the only option. Nothing says we cannot have a voluntary social contract, it just takes a choice by the people. 70-80% is hard to beat. A Jeffersonian constitution is much better imo anyway.

If people wanted limited government for more freedom why wouldn’t they want anarchism which would provide them for even more?

I just have to say tho..

National security is still an issue that needs to be addressed by the market but it isn’t as much of a problem now that we have all of these NGOs participating in foreign policy stuff and more private military firms now

Honestly, given the history of Rome, I don’t trust that one bit. I would rather it be scaled back to local militia’s, etc, first. Just handing over all this power and weaponry to private interests I find very dangerous.

But it’s not really possible to have a minarchist state and fighting the war on terror in a global-scale like this

Hmm… imperial hegemony and coercively securing american access to lucrative resources? I’m not sure the war on terror would be very well supported if the armies were subject to popular control as in an anarchy.

Epicurus Ibn Kalhoun

That’s not quite what I was getting at. You’re close though. I primarily believe that we shouldn’t be turning to enforce morality. The people that want to enforce morality are usually the elites in their respective community or they’re reactionaries who don’t want a certain thing done in a certain way. Obviously killing someone else or harming another person other than yourself is wrong… but people want so many arbitrary regulations over individual behavior that it’s just nuts. I believe this would happen in a minarchist state as well.

If people wanted limited government for more freedom why wouldn’t they want anarchism which would provide them for even more?

I just have to say tho..

National security is still an issue that needs to be addressed by the market but it isn’t as much of a problem now that we have all of these NGOs participating in foreign policy stuff and more private military firms now

Understood. But you also have to keep in mind that this was 2,000 years ago. Just because there have been some private military organizations that were bad (like Blackwater and XE services and the mercs) doesn’t necessarily mean that they all will be bad. It’s just like how there are certain military government organizations that are good and others that are bad. The problem lies not so much within the nature of the private military institutions but that the legal system isn’t quite yet prepared to deal with them. In a private legal system under an anarchical system we should be able to develop a legal system that deals with private military corps and restricts their behavior to follow the NAP.

But it’s not really possible to have a minarchist state and fighting the war on terror in a global-scale like this

I don’t think it’s even that well supported now! The war in Iraq is an unpopular war and the public is growing wary of the war in Afghanitsan. The government running the war has nothing to do with it. It mostly has to deal with the effectiveness of the people who are handling the conflicts IMO.

I believe this would happen in a minarchist state as well

Ya, a minarchist state without a jeffersonian constitution (at least) will have a very high probability of becoming more and more statist over time. Once you give something the ability to coercively grab power, megalomaniacs will use that for their so-called righteous causes.

In a private legal system under an anarchical system we should be able to develop a legal system that deals with private military corps and restricts their behavior to follow the NAP

That is sort of my point tho. A private military that still has the backing of and access to the mechanisms of a state is inviting absolutism. Not to say it will happen, but I would posit that it is likely.

I don’t think it’s even that well supported now!

It’s not about support, it’s about control. What are we going to do, vote for Mccain that wants to escalate Iraq, or Obama that wants to withdraw from Iraq to escalate in Afghanistan? You may not like Chomsky (or you may like him, I don’t know you lol), but he is entirely correct when he says we have a 1 party system with two factions.

I agree. I think that if we were to scale back our military into local divisions and they were controlled locally, foreign countries would be less likely to attack anywhere in the United States because they wouldn’t see interventionist America as a country but instead as various states. Pretending Texas seceded from the Union and they declared to foreign countries, “We no longer claim allies. We are freely trading with all, and none is more important than another,” they would be extremely less likely to be attacked in comparison to the rest of the United States under central control.

Ludwig von Mises? Really? I’m no expert on Mises, but upon examination of the following quote, I can hardly imagine that he would advocate that government’s proper role includes the active shaping of human morality:

Mises:

Self-styled “realistic” people fail to recognize the immense importance
of the principles implied. They contend that they do not want to deal with
the matter from what, they say, is a philosophic and academic point of view.
Their approach is, they argue, exclusively guided by practical considerations.
It is a fact, they say, that some people harm themselves and their
innocent families by consuming narcotic drugs. Only doctrinaires could be
so dogmatic as to object to the government’s regulation of the drug traffic.
Its beneficent effects cannot be contested.
However, the case is not so simple as that. Opium and morphine are
certainly dangerous, habit-forming drugs. But once the principle is admitted
that it is the duty of government to protect the individual against his own
foolishness, no serious objections can be advanced against further encroachments.
A good case could be made out in favor of the prohibition of alcohol
and nicotine. And why limit the government’s benevolent providence to the
protection of the individual’s body only? Is not the harm a man can inflict
on his mind and soul even more disastrous than any bodily evils? Why not
prevent him from reading bad books and seeing bad plays, from looking at
bad paintings and statues and from hearing bad music? The mischief done
by bad ideologies, surely, is much more pernicious, both for the individual
and for the whole society, than that done by narcotic drugs.
These fears are not merely imaginary specters terrifying secluded doctrinaires.
It is a fact that no paternal government, whether ancient or modern,
ever shrank from regimenting its subjects’ minds, beliefs, and opinions. If
one abolishes man’s freedom to determine his own consumption, one takes
all freedoms away. The naive advocates of government interference with
consumption delude themselves when they neglect what they disdainfully
call the philosophical aspect of the problem. They unwittingly support the
case of censorship, inquisition, religious intolerance, and the persecution of
dissenters.

edit: Forgive me if I misunderstand your view on Mises. Perhaps you include Mises, strictly, by way of his advocacy for government’s “necessary” role in providing security?

Statists believe people are not generally good most of the time. After all if people are generally good most of the time, simply getting the hell out of people’s way will result in the most good.

The statist believes people are not generally good most of the time and in order to achieve the most good, wise overlords need to use coercion from time to time to insure the most good.

If people are “evil”, why would the state be any less evil? The state would be more evil if anything, since the most evil people would be attracted to it.

If people are “evil”, why would the state be any less evil? The state would be more evil if anything, since the most evil people would be attracted to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk

Nonfederal Federal Reserve, you bring up a very good point. What makes people think that since people are evil having other people rule over them that might be evil might be a better state of affairs? It seems to me that I think that they believe that if all of our rulers were just than we would be a perfectly statist utopia within the bounds of the constitution. But that hardly ever seems to be the case.

Also@some other post, my problem with Ludwig Von Mises and other minarchists is that they believe that the government can be maintained at such a small level. They actually think that the government can remain minimal in our current state of affairs. I just don’t believe that this kind of government can be maintained for a long period of time. One could argue that anarchism has worked in practice more than a minimal level of government.

I’ve been debating national socialists lately on a forum, and it seems that on their perspective the main issue is morality and ethics. I find this a gross use of the state, that some believe the state must enforce a sense of community amongst them, and to protect them (protect them from bad ideologies, bad material influences, etc). That to them outside culture is decaying their own, and they must need direction, sad to say they don’t realize the state they glorify is the same one allowing the decay. They don’t understand the reality behind monopolies and special privileges, and they even seperate “capitalism” and “free-market” into entirely two different spheres. One of them even said something along the lines of “looking to the state for honor and loyalty”, or to that extent, I don’t remember exactly.

On economics, I’ve come across 2 people who actually have an understanding of it, and one of them ended up citing a George Stigler article from a journal that I don’t remember the name of (it was an unexpected reply to say the least). Other than that they don’t get into the subject of it, one of them got really bent out of shape when I actually got into theory, and someone else thought the discussion of business cycles was rather out of place. Needless to say the one who started one of the threads eventually posted she asked the moderator to delete it because no one wants a civil discussion when all my questions about theory were ignored.

I’ve been experimenting with this trying to see how much they’ll agree with, always replying from the anarcho-capitalist position on any subject (which is a given). It’s an odd experiment, but I’ve talked to a few on the forum through private messages and they say the NS nonsense takes over the forum, and they start to get “bold” and want to take everything over. I talked to a constitutionalist who said he knew some people who’s grandparents fought in WWII, and they said the Nazi experiment is just wrong. They didn’t want to talk further than that.

I’ve also been re-reading The Law, and have been quoting it a lot on their forum I read it years back, and now from going back over it I felt like I’ve missed a lot.

We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.

…and…

You say: “Here are persons who are lacking in morality or religion,” and you turn to the law. But law is force. And need I point out what a violent and futile effort it is to use force in the matters of morality and religion?

It would seem that socialists, however self-complacent, could not avoid seeing this monstrous legal plunder that results from such systems and such efforts. But what do the socialists do? They cleverly disguise this legal plunder from others — and even from themselves — under the seductive names of fraternity, unity, organization, and association. Because we ask so little from the law — only justice — the socialists thereby assume that we reject fraternity, unity, organization, and association. The socialists brand us with the name individualist.

But we assure the socialists that we repudiate only forced organization, not natural organization. We repudiate the forms of association that are forced upon us, not free association. We repudiate forced fraternity, not true fraternity. We repudiate the artificial unity that does nothing more than deprive persons of individual responsibility. We do not repudiate the natural unity of mankind under Providence.

…and…

The claims of these organizers of humanity raise another question which I have often asked them and which, so far as I know, they have never answered: If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? The organizers maintain that society, when left undirected, rushes headlong to its inevitable destruction because the instincts of the people are so perverse. The legislators claim to stop this suicidal course and to give it a saner direction. Apparently, then, the legislators and the organizers have received from Heaven an intelligence and virtue that place them beyond and above mankind; if so, let them show their titles to this superiority.

Huh? lol

Clayton -

Holland in reference to it’s seemingly nonexistent drug laws?

National Socialists (are you talking of the fascist or soviet kind? either way, they both) are to socialism what corporatism is to capitalism.