Unions

After having an enormously long argument on another thread it seems that everyone here thinks that just about every single rule a government may think up to “interfere” with the “free market” is bound to be bad and make the economy worse… Now I have just finished reading “economics in one lesson” by Henry Hazlitt and noted that he talked rather disparagingly about the work of unions, so presumably Austrians disapprove on unions and would like to perhaps ban them or curb their powers (am I right?). But then we have a contradiction:- unions presumably can evolve right out of a free market, so one could say they are even part of a free market and the only thing that can be done to reduce their power is to let the government create some rules to suppress the unions… but then that’s like the government interfering with the free market… which so many people here say is a bad thing.

So how do you resolve that contradiction?

The obvious answer to me appears to be that maybe most things a government does to interfere with the free market are bead, but there are a few things that they should do.

there are free market compatible unions and unions that are not. if you conflate the two you will get the contradiction you highlight. if you understand the difference then you see there is no contradiction.

Ermmm, then what do you do about the any non-free market unions that emerge? Ban them?

I don’t think your average Austrian would want to ban voluntary strikes or slow-downs, any more than he’d want to ban voluntary business cartels. Both are possible in a free market, but neither are, in practice, very effective, because the temptation to be a scab or a price-cutter are overwhelming.

The issue is not the right to form associations. It is whether or not any association of private citizens should be granted the privilege of resorting with impunity to violent action. It is the same problem that relates to the activities of the Ku Klux Klan.

  • Mises
Human Action p. 773; p. 779 Unions

Ok, so you’re suggesting that Austrians put up with unions because A) they don’t cause too much harm and B) any efforts to suppress their power would somehow do more harm than good.

I’m surprised you say that. I remember in the 70’s in the UK the unions were widely considered to be far too powerful and insisted an a vast number of restrictive working practices. Then along came Mrs Thatcher (who had Austrian leanings) and introduced some regulations to reduce their power. Presumably you disaprove of what Mrs Thatcher did.

no-one should have political power. unions aren’t a special case. they are merely a particular case.

So you’re saying that Austrians allow unions to do whatever they want as long as they don’t resort to violence. Is that right?

sure. the law of the land is the unions do have this right.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the collective organization or workers in attempts to obtain higher wages, a more comfortable work environment or whatever else they want. The problem arises when these organizations are granted special privileges above and beyond that of other free market entities. When this happens voluntary transactions turn to coercion thus the Libertarian can no longer endorse it.

I found this article on Union laws by doing a quick search on Google. http://money.howstuffworks.com/labor-union2.htm

Hope that helps.

Now let me get this straight… you seem to be claiming that when Henry Hazlitt says:

“Unions often do bad things that harm the economy”.

What he actually meant was:

“Unions often do bad things that harm the economy, but I recommend that we don’t do anything whatsoever to prevent them from doing these things”

But he just omitted to add the second part of the sentence.

mickanomics,

It’s all a matter of what you’re “suppressing”. Throughout to 20th century, especially, there have been laws that allowed unions to violate property rights. Insofar as Thatcher removed those laws, she did a good thing.

Unions never had significantly harmful power until the government began to support them.

Can you give an example of a (bad) special privilege that may have been granted to a union.

The free market is not about high output or low output. It’s about the result of free interaction.

One would be all the public sector unions.

Including cops, teachers, air traffic control, etc. That basically is not negotiation, but political control that has nothing to do with democracy or the market.

Rothbard:

"Unions, therefore, are theoretically compatible with the existence of a purely free market. In actual fact, however, it is evident to any competent observer that unions acquire almost all their power through the wielding of force, specifically force against strikebreakers and against the property of employers. An implicit license to unions to commit violence against strikebreakers is practically universal. Police commonly either remain “neutral” when strikebreakers are molested or else blame the strikebreakers for “provoking” the attacks upon them. Certainly, few pretend that the institution of mass picketing by unions is simply a method of advertising the fact of a strike to anyone passing by.

When unions are permitted to resort to violence, the state or other enforcing agency has implicitly delegated this power to the unions. The unions, then, have become “private states.”"

The National Labor Relations Act is full of them.

You mean the government set up those unions? Or runs them? I find that very hard to believe.

I don’t see why we couldn’t make a similar argument about corporations.

Spend some more time thinking about it.