What is property?

Furthermore, if you agree to treat “alienate” as a synonym of “abandon”, as I’m doing

I don’t, because then I would contradict my previous use of the word alienate, eg. in that definition of property I gave.

However, I think an important question here is what constitutes use. For example, if I buy a car, but just so I can put it in a garage and admire its beauty, do you think I’m using that car?

You’re starting to sound like a troll with this totally ludicrous connections you make between topics that are talked about and some notion about polysemy that retarded people don’t have doubts about. It’s like we’re talking about whether should a pupil drop out of school, and you start asking about why should people remove pupils from their eyes if they are in a school. It’s insane.

Okay, that’s fine. I won’t use the term “the right to alienate” anymore then. Instead I’ll use the term “the right to abandon”, which is what I meant by the term “the right to alienate”.

Perhaps you’d like to clarify your objection here, because so far, all I see is you trying to tell me to not say certain things. If that is indeed what you’re doing, then I consider it to be a waste of time and effort on your part. Now I would like you to tell me what you think constitutes using something. Understand that I’ll reject anything that amounts to “I know it when I see it”.

Papirius just keeps making bald assertions w/o supporting rationale :\

Autolykos has the patience of a saint.

Now I would like you to tell me what you think constitutes using something.

No, an area is not being used if it’s watched. I will not feed your trolling any more.

Papirius just keeps making bald assertions w/o supporting rationale

E.g.?

Autolykos has the patience of a saint.

Or is just a troll.

You haven’t been feeding my trolling, because I haven’t been trolling. Semantics lies at the heart of debate and, indeed, all communication.

So you say that an area isn’t being used of it’s only being watched. Logically, then, you must consider a car that’s not being driven, only being admired for its beauty while it’s sitting in a garage, as not being used either. Now let me ask you: when would you say something is being used? Again, I won’t accept anything like “I know it when I see it” as an answer.

If you really think I’m a troll, then why don’t you put your money where your mouth is, and report all of my posts as constituting trolling, and PMing one or more moderators/administrators asking them to perma-ban me since I’m apparently a troll? In other words, I’m calling your bluff here, sorry.

Considering that usage is central to your concept of ownership, its very hard to understand why you are so reluctant to define usage.

It’s not really hard to understand. His beliefs have at their root a very deep error that he cannot see or he would’ve corrected it long ago, and should he ever achieve clarity on that error he would be forced to change his entire world-view, meaning there’s deep psychological reasons why he doesn’t even want to achieve clarity, unless he’s intellectually honest and ready to change of course, but it doesn’t sound like he is.

F* you and your psychologist fallacy. Meaning of use? Area is used by existence of anything tangible on it, tangible things are used by exercising control over them (exerting effort [/labor] to change their natural state by physical contact). Watching a field is not using it.

Ah, yes, those silly paintings are not owned by anyone, unless of course we are using them as firewood.

Some things are made to be useless.

Let me ask this, do you own the “area” taken up by a sandwich as you eat it, or is it illegitimate to eat something because you can’t own it, because it’s taking up “area.”

In short, why on earth would land be considered fundamentally different from any other thing that can be owned. It’s the height of contradiction to accept that things can be owned except land. There is literally no point in thinking that. And I’d really like to know your ulterior motive for suggesting that concept, because it ain’t in the slightest bit consistent.

Let me ask this, do you own the “area”

or is it illegitimate to eat something because you can’t own it, because it’s taking up “area.”

These questions have nothing to do with what I’ve written here.

It’s the height of contradiction to accept that things can be owned except land.

Things can be owned if they are products of labor. Land (in meaning of an area) isn’t a product of labor, therefore- it cannot be legitimate property (whereas in capitalism it can).

Read before trolling, so that it doesn’t turn out so obvious. Look up to Autolykos.

In case anyone missed the humor in this, that statement is from a guy who says this about art:

Alright, I’m about to blow your mind.

Let’s say I bring a couple hundred thousand tons of dirt to the ocean and build my own island.

I have now created land as a product of labor. Do I own the island?

“The concept of ‘voluntary slavery’ is indeed a contradictory one, for so long as a laborer remains totally subservient to his master’s will voluntarily, he is not yet a slave since his submission is voluntary; whereas, if he later changed his mind and the master enforced his slavery by violence, the slavery would not then be voluntary”. - Rothbard

Ok, here is where I am getting a little stuck.

One the one hand, I get the argument that if the laborer remains totally subservient to his masters, he is not yet a slave. Once, he changes his mind, and the master enforces the slavery through violence, the slavery would then be ‘involuntary’.

But, this does seem contradictory to me in another way.

If I, Jones, do decide to sell myself into “slavery”, signing a contract with Smith claiming that I will forever be subservient to Smith, then I am bound by this contract to do so. If I change my mind later on then tough luck, right?

I mean, lets equate with something a little bit less emotionally charged. Lets say I sign up for a three year subscription for cell phone usage, as we commonly do. I sign a paper that says, “I, Jones, agree to pay for three years of cell phone service.” Well, like the slave, maybe twr years into the contract, I decide that maybe this deal isn’t as great as I thought it would be. The cell phone company is not aggressing against me when they come after the monthly fees just because I decided I don’t like the contract I signed. If you can just repudiate contracts like this then what is the point of the contract. It is largely to lock in the deal, make sure no one cuts and runs before they agreed to. I see no reason why, if one were foolish enough to just sign their rights over to someone else, that they shouldn’t be held liable for damages in repudiating their contract. They shouldn’t have signed it in the first place.

You might say that this person is simply not a slave since he voluntarily signed over his right to someone else. A slave does not do this. But I don’t think you can call it slavery if a master enforces his contract with the “laborer” or “slave” through violence if at some point the laborer signed a contract remitting property rights over his body to the master for an indefinite period of time.

I see how this may violate traditional contract law which necessitates a time frame. I also understand that you cannot truly sign over your will to someone else because you will always actually control it, but singing a contract to slavery involves a selling of your body. Because the will and the body cannot be divorced, this presents a problem. But, I think you could make the argument that in any contract you are selling off a portion of your will to the other party. You agree to control your will according to the conditions of the contract, but you are always physically free to break them. The question is of rights over enforcement. I don’t see why a master cannot enforce these rights if he possesses such a contract from you.

Never mind, Rothbard’s property rights and the theory of contracts cleared it all up for me. i was thinking of contracts purely in terms of promises and not property transfer…man, what a paradigm shift!

Right. To elaborate further:

“If I, Jones, do decide to sell myself into “slavery”, signing a contract with Smith claiming that I will forever be subservient to Smith, then I am bound by this contract to do so. If I change my mind later on then tough luck, right?”

Rothbard clears this up by placing the proper emphasis on title rather than contract. It’s title that is nonviolable, not contract. Holding title is always a moral proposition. But you can see that some contracts are invalid on their face, such as a slavery contract, because one cannot transfer title to their body to another, because they cannot separate their will from their body and cannot guarantee their future will won’t want to change the arrangement. If that future self does want to change the arrangement then the contract would have to become slavery for it to go into effect, thus violating the man’s rights and becoming an immoral and thus null contract.

you mean that useless pile of dirt in the middle of the water? You cant own it, it was made to be useless. :wink:

I exit the discussion, being that I have come to doubt whether the concept of (right to) property is justified at all.