When are we going to stop citing RJ Rummel?

Actually, in some ways the states of Athens and Syracuse were far more liberal than those of today’s democracies. Taxation was miniscule compared to today, and was mostly indirect. Children were not forced to attend indoctrination camps. Regulations on commerce were on the whole a lot more lax than today (though in certain cases more strict). Slavery was not introduced by these states, it was not indulged in to any great extent by these states, and slaves did not form a large amount of the population of these cities. In terms of freedoms and economic life, slaves in Athens were generally no worse off than the average thetes, and many were better off (masters could give the slave 3 out of the 4 freedoms without officially freeing the slave, which many did). The majority of slaves came to Athens as a result of war. There is no evidence for slave plantations in Athens that are comparable to those of the later Roman Republic or the antebellum South.

The point in bringing up these ancient states is that you have only one short historical period of democracies - in which they are all under American hegemony - from which you are drawing this absurd peace theory. In the only other period where there are democratic states, they made war against each other.

“Liberal democracies do not practice chattle slavery and they have universal sufferage.”

All the ‘democracies’ today hold their ‘citizens’ as slaves and in fact do not have effective universal suffrage a) because e.g. those under 18 cannot vote, b) because voting does not actually count for anything - my vote has never amounted to anything in any election.

“Prior to Europe becoming democratized it was constantly at war.”

List the wars fought in Europe 1815-1914 and compare them to 1914-today and show me just how much more warfare there was in the 19th century compared to the 20th century. Don’t forget that Nazi Germany arose through democracy, and that mass conscription arose out of the democratic ideals of the French Revolution!

“Liberal democracy is the only substantive independent variable that has changed from pre-WWII conditions.”

What about US hegemony? What about the imperial bases in Germany and elsewhere? What about the anti-militarism that arose in Europe due to WWII? What about the common threat of the USSR which resulted in close military ties? Democracy is a factor, yes - but only because it allows the state to make easy war against its subjects, while fooling them into believing they have power. But this is still war, albeit not between states.

Lastly, the European states have no respect for economic liberties, i.e. private property, so your point is moot.

To paraphrase Curly Howard,

“They were victims of soycomstance!”

See Guns, Germs, and Steel

I’m actually in the middle of reading it, but the abscence of large mammals suitable for domestication, coupled with an East-West major continental axis were the main reasons why Eurasians had the majority of those virulent dieases. Eurasians weren’t nearly as sucsessful displacing/exterminating the “primitive” cultures in the tropics. Sub-Saharan Africa (sans South Africa), The Amazon, New Guinea, etc.

Population size was not a causal factor in the least.

See 1491

Tenochitlan was larger than both Paris and London. The Inca Empire was one of the largest in the world. Even in North America, the Mound Builder and Mississippian cultures sustained large, dense populations.

Essentially, Eurasian’s sucsess in the Americas was entirely dependent on “some lucky phenonmena”.

Also, your position begs the question,

" what qualifies as ‘superior’?"

“Endorsed the principle of self-determination of nations.”

Yea if you were white, democratic and subservient to American interests.

The Inca empire was not one of the largest in the world. There are dozens of empires that were more populated along with a greater land mass and this is not even in the modern era.

I think something that helped the Americas have a dense population was maze and beans which provided higher nutriental value then the wheat crops of Europe. Rice is nutriental also so that is why you also tend to see dense populations in Asia.

Europe’s success in the Americas is based mostly on the virulent diseases that they brought with them. Things like smallpox, typhus and measals were much more virulent then the syphilis that the Americas had. Though syphilis would rage through Europe after the discovery of the Americas it did not cause as many deaths as the diseases in the Americas.

Democracies more respectful of civil and economic liberties? Don’t make me laugh. Under medieval monarchy, government spending as percentage of GDP hovered between 5-8%. Most modern democracies hover between 40 and 50%, the US included. Until King James came along, you didn’t have smoking bans. There were no “diversity seminars”, multiculturalism, compulsory education, wage controls, “sin taxes”, carbon taxes, environmentalism, feminism, health-and-safety nannyism, drug wars (barring the Opium Wars, which were engineered by a constitutional monarchy), racial quotas, wholly-fiat currencies, unions, mandatory wheelchair ramps and universities actually taught people things worth knowing rather than blowing taxpayers money on useless crap like “Queer Theory”, “Women’s Studies” or “Black History Month”. Taxes were utterly laughable in comparison to their modern rates, and most of them were flat to boot.

Civil liberties were, at worst, about equal; torture still exists, and where one could once have been imprisoned for blasphemy or speaking ill about the King, one can now be imprisoned for insulting Muhammad or questioning the Armenian Genocide, and frankly there’s some quite compelling evidence they were actually better (freedom of education being a biggie).

We’re talking about a society where a 10% flat tax was viewed as unspeakable, and where people understood that the king was a seperate and hostile power to them, rather than the Stockholm Syndrome and mind warping social democracy breeds. Plus, the national debt actually decreased in peacetime. Hoppe has a lot more on this, though you don’t need a professor to tell you that individual freedom has dramatically decreased throughout the 20th century.

@aristippus

please allow me to identify the criteria and the states that qualify as liberal democracies and therefore representative of DPT, not you.

I challenged the anarchists on this forum to provide a case study that would predict war between several score of nation-states that meet DPT criteria and this challenge was not met. . In addition, I challenged you and any other anarchists and monarchist apologists on this forum to wager $1000 over a ten year period that any higher order democracies on the list would engage in war and no anarchists have agreed to this challenge.

Your notion that slavery as practiced by Athens is equivalent to the civil and politcal rights enjoyed by Americans is absurd, period. In addition, there were no political or civil rights for over half the population in ancient Greece. Also, these societies obviously suffered greatly as a result of war forced on the majority of the citizenry by a largely oligarghic ruling class of land owning men.

Nonetheless, I do not cite Athens or any other nation-state in ancient Greece as an example of a higher order contemporary democracy, hence it is a strawman manufactured by you in the absence of any credible evidence against DPT.

Again, allow those who advocate DPT to decide the time frame in which this theory applies. There was no active and substantive DPT prior to the Cold War. I might add that there was no anarcho-capitalist movement of note during the 19th century or even during any of the periods you cite, yet anarchists will bellow ad nauseam that past history doesn’t matter regarding anarchism. However, there were plenty of wars from 1815 to WWI, I can name several off the top of my head, including the GErman invasion of France in 1871 and the Crimea War a decade earlier – not to mention numerous colonial indiscretions and massacres including the Turks genocide of Armenia. The list goes on and on regarding your citation of this supposed ‘peaceful’ period.

However, since 1945 – there have been exactly zero wars between democracies despite the fact that the number of these nation-states has increased markedly from a low of (1) in 1776 to over (100) democracies of varying degrees of freedom.

As for pax Americana, it is true. Wherever America is strong and dominant peace, prosperity, freedom and stability prevail. However compare this with pax Russia and you will see that communist dominated hegemony leads to numerous wars, genocides and insurrections.

So, my challenge to your inconsistent fallacy that hegemony is peaceful – why not SOviet hegemony ? WHy did the SOviet see fit to attack virtually all of the vassals under their sway while the US has not attack a single liberal democracy in over 70 years of reign?

Also, the challenge remains to any anarchist who can match their empty rhetoric with a friendly wager underwritten by a mutually agreed upon 3rd party.

@ Jack son LaRose

First, it was the Europeans that met the native AMericans on their own soil. So it is obvious which culture was superior technologically. Also, I believe that bison are domesticated. WHy didnt indian culture have the wherewithal to manage this bounty to feed millions instead of hunting that was only able to feed thousands?

But the bottom line is that Europeans conquered the Indians very easily. Even before disease undermined the defenses of native AMericans, tiny war parties like those of Cortez demonstrated that even before disease decimated indian society – they would have fallen in short order anyway.

I think that the supposed cities of the new world were really cesspools of poverty and disease in of themselves. the primitive nature of indian culture lent itself to magnify the effects of disease in a backward society that was already vulnerable to threats of all types. It doesnt matter what set of circumstances actually brought down these peoples, they were destined to decline.

Even when the native americans that remained developed resistance to Western disease. THeir culture was unable to mobilize and unite in common defense against the Europeans – sort of remains you of the apathy that anarchists have for the plight of their neighbors. You know, “it aint my business, so why should I spend money and blood defending someone else”

and what qualifies as superior ?

having a culture that survives, is free, prosperous, peaceful and stable. And none are more so then liberal democracies.

@ cain

Even after the native americans, aztecs, inca and others weathered the effects of disease, they still had a tremendous advantages defending their ancestors lands, a larger population, and vastly more natural resources and range from which to counter attack. However, these backward civilizations did not unite or form any kind of substantive effort to defend their land.

They did not leverage Western technology or practices, they did nothing but engage in brutal tactical warfare against the West and sometimes foolishly against themselves.

No, disease was a fleeting impediment, indian society and culture was the main culprit. it was and remained backward and unable to assert or defend itself despite decades of tremendous opportunity to turn the tide against tiny and vulnerable European settlements.

@ Praetyre

Government spending under monarchies was slight because they had significantly lower GDP.

It is amusing that so many anarchists on this forum so vigorously defend command economies associated with monarchism that deny basic civil, political and economic rights that is best guaranteed under even imperfect liberal democracy.

And your argument regarding the efficacy and ‘freedoms’ afforded by monarchy is moot. Few exist and soon none will exist. THey have become extinct by the will of the people, democracy’s ascendancy, and capitalism. Essentially you have destroyed your credibility by spending considerable effort defending that which mankind has utterly rejected.

Monarchism now resides in the dust bin of history along with the ideological foundation of those that amusingly try to defend it as a vibrant system.

As for the ‘mind warping’ powers of liberal democracies, I think that the freedoms associated with liberal democracy is more likely to spawn irrational conspiracy theorists who contradicatorially vilify the democracy that they so freely and vehemently criticize as being despotic when the very act of their open criticism throughly debunks their rhetoric.

also, no society in history can boast the bounty of communication and ideas the is spread so easily and cheaply within liberal democracies. It is absurd that you have so free and open a forum in history to engage in criticism against the society you live in yet you claim it is despotic.

You have correctly identified many of the economic problems associated with liberal democracy (that might soon be addressed in a peaceful manner), yet none can deny that political and civil freedoms are more vigorous today than at anytime in the history of mankind.

Is there even any point in debating a partisan?? Seriously, Centinel, you have completely failed to even comprehend what I wrote. Your knee-jerk reaction is “he wrote something about ‘imperial hegemony and colonial subjugation’ so he must be espousing it. What an idiot! Quick, I better debunk imperial hegemony and colonial subjugation before someone else beats me to it…”

Let me walk you through it. Your fallacy is “affirming the consequent.” In other words:

A->B
B

A

This is not a consistent syllogism. Its very close cousin, is consistent:

A->B
A

B

Now, substitute to see what I mean in this case:

A: Democratic Peace Theory
B: Peace between Democracies

But the very point in contention is whether A is true, so the second syllogism gets your argument nowhere.

Actually, any form of tyranny, however honest or dishonest (liberal) is not peace, it is enslavement. When the slaves stop chafing at their master’s irons, that is not “peace”, it is resignation. The only kind of peace is honest peace and that is only really achieved with the complete absence of any systematic form of aggression.

Simply false. Hoppe shreds all forms of government tyranny. What the hell were all those Republican and Democratic revolutions in the 19th and 20th centuries about, if not the brutal abuse of power at the hands of monarchs?? Hoppe’s only point is “you thought monarchies were bad, wait until you see democracies.” He does not endorse a return to monarchy, even as a transitional stage to liberty. Instead, Hoppe endorses strategic and progressive secession and localization of governments, with the ultimate goal of unlimited secession.

Clayton -

Is there even any point in debating a partisan?? Seriously, Centinel, you have completely failed to even comprehend what I wrote. Your knee-jerk reaction is “he wrote something about ‘imperial hegemony and colonial subjugation’ so he must be espousing it. What an idiot! Quick, I better debunk imperial hegemony and colonial subjugation before someone else beats me to it…”

You’re a good poster Clayton. My opinion: you are wasting value post time if you wish to discuss things with this guy. So unless you like his posts so you can use them as a sounding board for the community to see you present an idea, or for you to clarify thoughts on, or experiment with something new (all fine reasons) - there probably isn’t much value in posting to this guy .

That isn’t my argument; I am referring to government spending as a percentage of GDP, not government spending in absolute terms.

When I refer to “mind warping”, I refer to the fact that most citizens of most monarchies considered their king to be a seperate and oftentimes hostile figure to their own interests. There was no delusion under monarchy that “government is us”, or that the national debt didn’t matter because “we owe it to ourselves”. The whole reason the divine right of kings had to be invented is because people could clearly see this; whereas most citizens of democratic regimes believe they have somehow consented to rule by faceless bureaucrats and that government controlled resources and property are “public” or “social” (the latter being an Orwellian word if I’ve ever seen one).

The bounty of communication is due to technology; being a monarchy evidently didn’t stop the Holy Roman Empire from inventing the printing press, nor the other medieval societies from adopting it. And how are freedoms more vigorous today? There is more legislation and more regulation of individual’s lives and liberties than in any pre-20th century society in all of human history. Rarely is the possibility or notion that the expansion of the god-state is not the solution to all ills discussed in Western media. Take the “debate” over the financial crisis in the mainstream media. The positions held essentially vary between either “Stimulus and bailouts are good for the economy” and “Banks should have been nationalized and there needs to be more government control of the economy to prevent this ever happening again.”. There are some more minor voices that can be better in certain respects, but in others they are even worse, like the protectionist Buchananites or the crypto-Marxists who want to establish a maximum wage.

How precisely do you go about fixing these issues in a “liberal” democracy? The academic, media and political establishment are all socially democratic at their core, with minorities of neoconservatives mixed in. No career politician is going to cut subsidies or entitlements, and globalist entities like the EU make it more and more difficult to stand apart in national policy anyway (look at the attacks on Switzerland for it’s banking privacy). “Climate change” is the new cause-du-jour for massive assaults on property rights.

Public anger over the recession is rarely directed in a libertarian way; it is either directed at the “greed” of speculators and other bogeymen or the corruption of the banksters. The latter is good, but is not enough on it’s own, and often the anger assumes the banksters are corrupt because of a lack of regulation and oversight, and that new forms of government control, such as higher capital gains taxes and the aforementioned wage caps, must be instituted at an international level to prevent future recessions. Anger, when it is directed at the government at all, is often directed because the public believes the government simply stood by as a “sleeping watchdog” during the recession, rather than being the very cause of it through it’s system of perverse incentives and inflationism.

If you can think of ways to solve these issues, more power to you. If being pessimistic about Western democratic (and especially Anglospheric) issues makes me a mad monarchist, well call me George III.

@vive: I like to use the belligerents as a springboard to write the most damning possible refutations of widely-held statist beliefs… it’s primarily for the benefit of the lurkers. Plus, I see a bit of my old, pre-2008 neocon self in Centinel.

Clayton -

@ clayton

It is amusing (and absurd) that your fundamental criticism of my argument in support of DPT is that it is flawed precisely because I point out correctly that liberal democracies have not engaged in conflict with each other ??!!

Ridiculously, I am accused of a fallacious argument because I cite an obvious and critical point — Liberal democracies have never fought a war against one another.

This is called empirical evidence. It is not a fallacious argument to cite fact. You may not like it, but you have to deal with it.

In addition, I challenged opponents to cite their argument for way liberal democracies have not engaged in conflict and the following actual fallacies was forthcoming:

  1. citing wars between nations that were/are not remotely higher order liberal democracies.

  2. arguing that hegemonic peace was the reason despite the fact that I provided evidence to debunk this assertion based on the propensity for autocratic hegemonic systems to be extremely coercive to vassal states.

  3. and arguing that liberal democracies were really despotic despite the obvious truth that civil, political and economic rights have increased markedly since 1776.

Also, I challenged you to match your rhetoric with a $1000 wager and you ran from this challenge citing as a ‘bad investment’ the doubling of your money in 10 years + guaranteed compounded interest income?!

In addition, DPT is logically confirm because the elements of coercion within liberal democracies are decentralized, balanced, limited and made transparent. More importantly, liberal democracies are explicitly founded on the principles of life, liberty and private property. As a result, they are loath to attack a like minded society.

Also, the command of the military, the funding of the military, the allocation of funds, the oversight, the war fighting itself, the benefits, internal police force, arms manufactures, logistic suppliers and militias are all dispersed among disparate sectors of society that insures that only a strong consensus based on the founding principles of life, liberty and private property preservation will lead to war.

Note that within autocratic and anarchic societies, coercive force is opaque, centralized, unaccountable, and those that wield this force directly profit from its use. These conditions are not present within liberal democracies, also these traits are largely why liberal democracies do not trust autocratic regimes.

Most notably, Liberal democracies are not pacific, they are violent to expansionist or extreme autocratic regimes, yet they are utterly pacific toward fellow liberal democracies. This contrast is palpable, it is too noteworthy to be dismissed as a fallacious syllogism.

So every single argument you and others have proposed, I have debunked based on the inconsistent evidence that debunks these failed attempts to undermine DPT.

And lastly, I am still waiting for you to match your rhetoric with action and $1000.

You can supply the 3rd party to underwrite both the criteria and manner in which the funds are secured.

I am waiting… And please refrain from the ad hominems they reflect more on you, than any shortcoming in me.

"@ cain

“Even after the native americans, aztecs, inca and others weathered the effects of disease, they still had a tremendous advantages defending their ancestors lands, a larger population, and vastly more natural resources and range from which to counter attack. However, these backward civilizations did not unite or form any kind of substantive effort to defend their land.”

First, the meso-American cultures were not “backward.” Second, Tenochtitlan was not conquered by the Spanish until smallpox wiped out most of the city. Third, the Spanish utilized the hatred of the Aztecs by surrounding villages in order to turn them against the strongest power.

“They did not leverage Western technology or practices, they did nothing but engage in brutal tactical warfare against the West and sometimes foolishly against themselves.”

They had never met Westerners before and when they did the Westerners were claiming their land for the Spanish king. Thank god Europeans never fought amongst each other or else they might be “backward” like the meso-Americans.

“No, disease was a fleeting impediment, indian society and culture was the main culprit. it was and remained backward and unable to assert or defend itself despite decades of tremendous opportunity to turn the tide against tiny and vulnerable European settlements.”

Yes, it was not a smallpox epidemic of 1510 and 1521 or even a measles outbreak of 1531, 1563 and 1595 or a typhus outbreak of 1545 and 1576 or a mumps outbreak 1550. It was not the fact that decade after decade the native populace of meso-America continually expericed germ outbreaks which would destroy their population numbers. Oh yes, it was their “backward” society.

Honestly, I do not go out of my way to call people eurocentrist because I think it is really a overused term in the historical community, kind of like calling someone a racist in the public realm, but honestly, stop the eurocentric claptrap. Do not talk about things you have no understanding of.

The whole reason the divine right of kings had to be invented is because people could clearly see this; whereas most citizens of democratic regimes believe they have somehow consented to rule by faceless bureaucrats and that government controlled resources and property are “public” or “social” (the latter being an Orwellian word if I’ve ever seen one). – Praetyre

It is not a contract or consent to be ruled, it is a contract to imprison statists in a institutionalized framework from which they can do as little harm to civil, political and economic rights as possible.

Of course, these statists have found some fissures in the prison mortar that has enabled them to temporarily gain some coercive economic power. This must be addressed with an economic bill of rights to complement our sturdy civil and political bill of rights.

The bounty of communication is due to technology; being a monarchy evidently didn’t stop the Holy Roman Empire from inventing the printing press, nor the other medieval societies from adopting it. And how are freedoms more vigorous today? There is more legislation and more regulation of individual’s lives and liberties than in any pre-20th century society in all of human history. – Praetyre

Most of the regulations are petty, death by a thousand cuts indeed, but individually they are insignificant and overwhelmingly economic in nature. Of course, economic coercion is real and without it civil and political freedom is meaningless. But compared to the middle ages or any other era – political and civil rights equal protections under the law, living standards, life expectancy, infant mortality, upward mobility, and other societal metrics have improved markedly from the past.

Even today government in both autocratic and democratic societies is in decline. Even in the hyper-socialist Scandanavian states government regulatory and tax powers have been rolled back and will continue to decline in size and scope. It is obvious that the globe is experiencing a dramatic increase in free markets, political and civil rights unprecedented in past history. SO to say that mankind had more promise during the Middle Ages compared to the inspiring changes in both the West and developing world is an argument based on ignorance with blinders.

Take the “debate” over the financial crisis in the mainstream media. The positions held essentially vary between either “Stimulus and bailouts are good for the economy” and “Banks should have been nationalized and there needs to be more government control of the economy to prevent this ever happening again.”. There are some more minor voices that can be better in certain respects, but in others they are even worse, like the protectionist Buchananites or the crypto-Marxists who want to establish a maximum wage.-- Praetyre

Someone like Ron Paul generating the interest he does today would have been impossible a decade ago. Also, the fastest growing economic school is the Austrians. Of course, special interests are loath to surrender their ill gotten gains, but across the globe entrenched autocrats are under seige like never before in human history.

How precisely do you go about fixing these issues in a “liberal” democracy? The academic, media and political establishment are all socially democratic at their core, with minorities of neoconservatives mixed in. No career politician is going to cut subsidies or entitlements, and globalist entities like the EU make it more and more difficult to stand apart in national policy anyway (look at the attacks on Switzerland for it’s banking privacy). “Climate change” is the new cause-du-jour for massive assaults on property rights. – Praetyre

Climate change is insignificant. The public at large rejects it and the US will dramatically expand its production and use of fossil fuels going forward despite the token investment in crony capitalist schemes like alternative energy. Indeed, I have been to the Bakken field and there is enough gas to power half the nation for decades, global warming notwithstanding. As for academia, media, politicians and pop culture — circumstances and economic realities will dictate the end of statism irrespective of what they do. It is simply unsustainable as you know. As a result it will collapse under the weight of its own inefficiencies and corruption. And be grateful that you live in a liberal democracy that will weather this change far more nimbly and peacefully than under an autocratic or anarchic society.

Public anger over the recession is rarely directed in a libertarian way; it is either directed at the “greed” of speculators and other bogeymen or the corruption of the banksters. The latter is good, but is not enough on it’s own, and often the anger assumes the banksters are corrupt because of a lack of regulation and oversight, and that new forms of government control, such as higher capital gains taxes and the aforementioned wage caps, must be instituted at an international level to prevent future recessions. Anger, when it is directed at the government at all, is often directed because the public believes the government simply stood by as a “sleeping watchdog” during the recession, rather than being the very cause of it through it’s system of perverse incentives and inflationism.-- Praetyre

That outcome is certainly a possibility, but the Republic has weathered far greater difficulties without resorting to permanent absolutism. Indeed, we have seen continued increases in political and civil freedoms despite these difficulties. There is considerable consensus in society for continued protections from government overreach particularily in the global war on terror, infringement of personal freedoms, and restrictions on civil discourse. The Supreme Court has reaffirmed many individual and free speech rights recently and the Constitutional framework is in place to protect these indefinitely. Of course, statists last refuge is economic coercion and that will soon be removed from their toolkit since it is reached its zenith. Indeed, the Tea Party movement (and for that matter the increasing popularity of libertarian outlets like MIses.org) is a manifestation against government that debunks your assertion that the citizenry looks to government for support in times of need. Electronic communications insures that the truth can be uncovered and it has been my experience that the youth of this nation are some of the most fervent libertarians. In fact, I don’t think that the libertarian or classical liberal movement has had as much a future and following among the young then it has today.

If you can think of ways to solve these issues, more power to you. If being pessimistic about Western democratic (and especially Anglospheric) issues makes me a mad monarchist, well call me George III. – Praetyre

Statism will never die. It is not the result of government, it is the result of societal actors seeking to gain power by coercive means because they can’t by peaceful and voluntary means (free market). They will use whatever means they can to gain power, including the state or the market.

But the state is not necessarily evil if it is designed to imprison statist tendencies by decentralizing coercive power, balancing it, limiting it in a Constitutional Federal framework where we can all monitor it and attenuate it. Without the institutional ‘prison’ of liberal democracy, these statists could work their schemes in secrecy and without any restraint developing vertical and horizontal territorial monopolies of coercive power. Of course, statist and their cronies in the private sector have temporarily broken out of the prison and engaged in economic coercion, but an economic bill of rights is forthcoming. Perhaps a Constitutional convention that will either speed up the inevitable decline or reverse it in its tracks. But I think the change will be relatively peaceful as catacylsmic changes go.

“May you live in interesting times” – old Chinese proverb

@ Cain,

I guess I must have committed a fallacy for stating the obvious that European culture dominates the Western Hemisphere and Native American culture is marginalized even generations after its initial collapse, it has still not emerged.

YOu know like clayton’s argument that it is a fallacious syllogism to assume you are wet simply because it is raining.

You know, A → B so B-> A or A/B * C + 1/D with A = wet and B = raining, C = no hat and D= Hoppe.

Could it be that it was really backward since it remains marginalized even after the effects of disease have subsided ?

And is a culture really advanced and worthy of duplication if it doesn’t have the wherewithal to unite despite an overwhelming advantage in geography and population to defeat a common enemy ?

At least liberal democracies have usually come to the assistance of each other when one is threatened. Indeed, virtually all of the military-industrial complex of Western civilization is intertwined among many disparate liberal democracies across North America, Europe and even Japan.

No single weapon system is made exclusively in a single liberal democracy. Also, virtually all of the most advanced of these weapon systems are denied to non-democratic states. This is another reason why DPT is on solid ground, the military infrastructure of these nations is heavily integrated while it is almost universally off limits to autocratic regimes for good reason.

“I guess I must have committed a fallacy for stating the obvious that European culture dominates the Western Hemisphere and Native American culture is marginalized even generations after its initial collapse, it has still not emerged.”

It is not a fallacy. It is just ignorance.

“:Could it be that it was really backward since it remains marginalized even after the effects of disease have subsided ?”

Yes, centuries of slavery and racial marginzalization haven’t occured at all.

“And is a culture really advanced and worthy of duplication if it doesn’t have the wherewithal to unite despite an overwhelming advantage in geography and population to defeat a common enemy ?”

Who said anything about duplication? See again you are talking from a point of ignorance. The Aztecs had enemy tribes around them. The Europeans recruited local tribes to attack the Aztecs because they knew they were the dominate power in the region.

“At least liberal democracies have usually come to the assistance of each other when one is threatened. Indeed, virtually all of the military-industrial complex of Western civilization is intertwined among many disparate liberal democracies across North America, Europe and even Japan.”

Great job applying a modern style of government to an ancient society. There were just so many liberal democracies floating around Europe. Let us see you have

The Spanish: No wait…they had a king

The English: No

The French: No

The Holy Roman Empire: No

Portugal: No

Russia: No

Italy: No

Are you getting the point yet?

“No single weapon system is made exclusively in a single liberal democracy. Also, virtually all of the most advanced of these weapon systems are denied to non-democratic states. This is another reason why DPT is on solid ground, the military infrastructure of these nations is heavily integrated while it is almost universally off limits to autocratic regimes for good reason.”

And this has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Well at least I shut you up on the epidemics portion. Now just need to lock down the extras.

“In addition, I challenged you and any other anarchists and monarchist apologists on this forum to wager $1000 over a ten year period that any higher order democracies on the list would engage in war and no anarchists have agreed to this challenge.”

The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate how a decade of no war between democratic states proves that the so-called DPT is correct.

“Your notion that slavery as practiced by Athens is equivalent to the civil and politcal rights enjoyed by Americans is absurd, period.”

I never said that - in fact there are different kinds of slavery (even e.g. within the chattel slavery of Ancient Greece).

“I can name several off the top of my head, including the GErman invasion of France in 1871 and the Crimea War a decade earlier”

Several = 2??

“However, since 1945 – there have been exactly zero wars between democracies”

As I pointed out, the democratic states have turned to internal war since in modern times it is far less costly and more efficient - this is one major factor in the lack of wars between democratic states. But this is not peace at all - rather the ‘Democratic Peace Theory’ should be called the ‘Democratic Internal War External Peace Theory’.

“Wherever America is strong and dominant peace, prosperity, freedom and stability prevail.”

Do you really think that you live under the best possible institutional conditions for all of these things?

“However compare this with pax Russia and you will see that communist dominated hegemony leads to numerous wars, genocides and insurrections.”

  1. The lack of these things under democratic regimes does not mean that democracy was the cause, and 2) Democracy is itself a form of communism, in which there is partial public control of the means of production: abuses existed according to the extent of this.

“WHy did the SOviet see fit to attack virtually all of the vassals under their sway while the US has not attack a single liberal democracy in over 70 years of reign?”

  1. because the USSR was much more of a basketcase than the West and the threat of secession by its vassals was more real and 2) because there was less wealth for the states to exploit through internal war in the Eastern Bloc than in the West and the regimes of these vassals had much less control over the exploitation of their subjects than the western regimes did, thus making secession comparatively advantageous.

Also the wager remains open for you to put up $100,000,000 to be paid to me if there is ever a war between democratic states. I will also put up the same amount, and if at the end of time there has not been a war between democratic states, I will pay this amount to you in full.