And do you think screaming “murderer” at people gets better results?
Well, I can’t give a general answer to that, but I think it’s the ‘right’ (haha) thing to do. Really, this is not about seduction and persuasion but about getting facts right. I think that people like Josh, who are delusional about the nature of libertarianism and the nature of the American military need to slapped hard, metaphorically speaking.
Also, I would argue that your politeness is probably misunderstood as approval and that you are doing your friend no real favor.
cool juan, just dont confuse LS with Josh. LS hasn’t got his facts wrong as far as i can make out. you and LS are in fact [;)] disagreeing on persuasion, with you thinking that LS should go full on Truth-teller (a step beyond truth knower), and LS respectfully disagreeing.
A free society would most likely never be invaded. So who cares?
No, you can tell people you don’t approve without screaming murderer at them. [:)]
There may be people that works on. I prefer to attack their premise using the socratic method. I find over the top aggression isn’t consistent with how I perceive libertarianism.
It might. But probably not. I doubt most people are mature enough to question their reality. I cornered my co-worker the other day, intellectually speaking. He was saying that the government’s authority is legitimate because my parents signed a social security number contract. I explained to him that it was a contract signed under duress (never mind parental contracts are not binding to the child when he or she grows up). He said that since they did not leave the country, that it was. I then asked if we had one world government, what then, if they did not kill themselves then it would be legitimate? (This would of course be regular slavery). He said he got my point. Does he still love the U.S. government? For sure. He just cannot imagine a world without it. I even pointed out that he is just arguing from ignorance. And he still loves the U.S. government.
My point is, I do not think it matters how one communicates with others. Either they are mature enough to question their reality, or they are not.
Thats interesting.
I am not defending americas foreign policy or the acts that have been commited in what was so called “national defense” I am defending the honor of men who believe they are dying as defenders of freedom. And many of the discussions on this site are only applicable or possible under a common pretense. Its not like I didnt say it is honorable to fight a defensive war never did I say its ok to go parading military might accross the world
yeah just like the nice man liveing down the street would never get robbed. You do realize there are people who see a free society as moraly wrong and feel it is thier duty to destroy it.( yes I know “im under the delusional lies given to me by the state”)
expound on this please
I pretty much agree with the rest so im only quoting this part but I think all of you fail to realize that without people of a like mind on the inside you will never win. You need people that sympathize with you in the military and in politics, even though they are part of the state they can work against it. ie people in the military that can help if/when the military is called onto domestic soil against those fighting for a very limited government, or polititians fighting againt new legislature and being a usefull platform to spread the ideas to more people.
that and if libertarians in the military are successful in spreading thier message governments have a tendency to listen when thier armys shout them down
Josh, will you answer my question to you?
If deployed, will you use force against non-combatants if so ordered? Do you feel this is legitimate?
sorry must have missed that.
No I will not. Even by government standards much less my own its a crime to use force especially deadly or wounding force on a person who poses no threat. If ordered to do so I will say that such actions are unbecoming of an member of the armed forces because we are deciplined soldiers not street gangs, skip as high up the chain of command as I need go report whoever told me to do whatever it was. That and since winning peoples hearts and minds is much more effective than winning ground I can very legitimatly argue that this would not be condusive to whatever we were trying to accomplish.(though if we were on foriegn soil we most likely were not acccomplishing much, and if it was domestic any non combatant would be my fellow countrymen)- yes i know “fellow countrymen” isnt very popular around here.
I find it facinating how you and juan are capable of determining my views and “facts” for me. I think i have stated many times and made it abundently clear that i in no war support my countrys history of terrible forign policy and fighting wars of interest
Actually Josh is going to invade any place his masters tell him to invade. Of course the locals might have the misguided idea of resisting invasion. At that point they will be murdered.
Lots of civilians will die as well - they have a name for that unfortunate accident, collateral something.
Anyway, the interesting point is, when Josh invades a country and the locals use force to defend themselves, can Josh murder the defenders in turn, invoking ‘self-defense’ ?
Did you say something about the people who made (and make) those wars possible ? What is it that you said ?
lets see… I stated how I do not support/ would like to see changed/ aknowledge the abuses of american foriegn policy( thus not supporting those who decide upon the wars) at least 3 times and stated in one of my very early posts on this topic that the leader need to be held to the greater scrutinty and disdain not the soldiers
I believe this gives credence to my claim you dont read posts before denouncing them
wow you are very adept at focusing on wording and manipulating context to denounce someone you should be a politician
Yes, you are denying that the soldiers are moral agents responsible for the crimes they commit. Here’s another fact. The people who give the orders don’t do much if any of the real killing. The real killing is done by soldiers. The same people you consider ‘honorable’.
I read all your war propaganda.
Now, do you mind answering what you are going to do when the people you invade use force in self-defense ? Are you going to let them rightfully shoot you ?
Do you realize that what you say makes no sense ? That if you join the military you will be doing exactly what you claim you don’t approve of ?