i take it you didnt play connect the dots when you were little then because you possess frighteningly little ability to connect more than 2 thoughts together.
the soldiers fully and truly believe they are doing good in the world because they have not been exposed to anything other than the mainstream ideas
so you are saying that those who manipulate these soldiers are not the bad guys i its just the soldiers whos sense of duty has been perverted to fit other and opposite ends that are evil
That’s just another lie of yours. But regardless, if Jones is a murderer, the fact that Jones fancies himself a saint is irrelevant.
They are as bad as the soldiers.
Or maybe, as I pointed out earlier, the soldiers like to kill people and what you call ‘sense of duty’ is just an excuse.
Now, would you be so kind as to tell me what you are going to do when the people in the countries you are likely to invade use force to defend themselves ?
This argument is getting redundent but lets go 'round again
Your insane belief that soldiers enjoy killing people so join the military in order to get thier jollys off is unfounded so theres not really a whole lot i can say other than how did you come up with that delusion
as previously stated by myself and others they are misguided and uninformed. If jones has never been told or exposed to the idea that doing something is wrong then when he does it he is not evil but ignorant. Most people are not aware of the choice of being state run or being free or of any of the ideals that come with that.
Your “logic” is circular and created to fit your own ends, not actually reasonable
Your answer please ?
no I plan shooting them because when im being shot at i dont think i will be so concerned with ideals. However while in the military i hope to effect change say change the military to being against policing the world and instead focus on true honest defense, or say when we happen to be somewhere we dont really belong I can at least be of help in preventing collateral damage and can help by say freeing prisions full of the children of political dissenters for example.
also just a question for the general public-While im not for intervening on behalf or fighting for another nations freedom what if in my career I end up in a place where the people are oppressed, is fighting the other government troops oppressing them moraly wrong?
yes i have already stated i will have to be part of a system whos actions i cannot condone but I will be of much greater good to this cause than people like you. In the military I have a ligitimate platform and experiance to back me up when i say " this is wrong, This does no good, we should defend our soil by actually being on our soil ect" where as you will never be anygood because you will only be discussing these things with people who already agree because you lack the tact to come off as more than loon when you tell them you dissaprove and submit your ideas to them
So you admit you are an aggressor who’s going to murder people who act in self-defense ?
Thanks sonny, I rest my case.
Aha. So, what about telling the soldiers you love so much that they are being manipulated ? Do you need to join the murder club to do that ? Maybe you can enlighten them without enlisting ?
You are going to prevent ‘collateral damage’ by murdering the people who defend the countries you invade ?
…
Oppressed by the ameriKKKan military perhaps ?
so you will be a murderer and proud of it.
Oh really.
How so ? Do you think that you as a murderer will have the moral authority to condemn murder ?
Okay, why don’t you follow your own advice ? You don’t need to join the military. Get a honest job at home. When the Chinese actually land in KKKalifornia you can start thinking about the defense of the vaterland.
people who agree with me like you ?
I may be a loon. But I’m not a murderer. You are loonier than me and will soon become a murderer too.
anyone wishing to see my points on any of juans “points” can just scroll up or back a few pages and read through my comments to him and others im tired of being redudndent
There are, from my limited understanding, a vast number of reasons (The degree to which each applies varies depending on the individual) as to why people feel it is honorable to fight in a war.
The first is the mentality that sacrifice=good, without any further elaboration on sacrifice to what. The desire to suffer and sacrifice, the willingness to undergo such circumstances, is a perminant aspect of human nature, and will never go away. If one simply remembers that the state perverts everything that it comes in contact with, one can understand how this natural “inborn” part of human nature is used to make war honorable. The willingness to undergo suffering for a greater cause is certainly noble, but the nobility is dependant on the greatness of the cause, not the willingness to suffer. This isn’t to say that individuals currently fighting for not-so-great causes don’t have the potential, merely that such a potential is currently misdirected.
Another common underlying cause of the aformetioned belief is the individuals need (yes, need) to identify with a group, and the desire to protect that identity (personified in this example as the “Nation State” while in a free society individual idenity is likely to be much more complex and less violently expressed) When the subject of war is considered, one imagines that one is fighting for one’s country (An entity that cannot be described very well by much anyone, hence the problem of it’s use) it is merely an extension of the “self defense” instinct, now applied to a larger “self”. This instinct will not disappear, nor ought it. Humans form groups and protect them for a reason, beacause we need to. However, this part of human nature can be perverted, as is easily demonstrated.
Besides this, there is the fear of feeling otherwise. People, who identify themselves with a “country” now are partially responsible for “it’s” conduct. When something bad happens to an American, it happens to “America” and "America "responds. This collective individuality (a contradiction if there ever was one) creates feelings of pride and guilt. If someone has a choice, will they feel pride or guilt? They will choose the former, as opposed to the latter.
Of course, there are the most base of motivations, the desire to fight and kill without consequence. However, it is my belief (being that I have no reliable statistics on the subject) that this is a minority amoung those who currently serve the state (Although it could be dispropotionatly large in comparision to the general population, as I said, I woudln’t know). From some degree of experience (an experience colored by various factors including distance, emotional investment in a postive conclusion, etc.) I can say that most people don’t hold this as a top priority, if at all.
First of all, robbing someone and killing someone are two completely different things. Second of all, if the thief knew the nice man living down the street had a gun, he probably would not rob him. Lastly, no, there is no one I know of that sees a free society as morally wrong.
Justification for a just or unjust war is not as important as to how society views itself in relation to the state.
A society which views itself as being the basis of the state, as in most democracies, is more likely to view military service as being a protection of the citizens themselves.This perceived protection of all citizens gives soldiers a sense of honor.
This gets weaker the more dictatorial a government becomes. Certain societies have managed to work around this by having an almost inborn culture of servitude (see Nazi Germany as opposed to fascist Italy. Both had similar systems, yet a remarkably different response by the average citizen dealing with respect for the military). However, in many societies the military is not particularly honored by the people.
The state of a nation also has a major part in deciding how people form their opinions. Here in South Korea they see war as a constant, if unlikely, possibility. And the war would be all around them, so they make military service mandatory, AND they attach a whole bunch of societal ploys to make the men actually want to do it. So this was born out of need.
Islamic fundamentalists? yeah know the very extreme ones that like to play with public transportation… I have actually watched a rally in london informing all western countries that bacause we do not live by the Quran( a very warped view of it maybe) we are infidels doomed to death by “endless jihad” and damnation in the afterlife. While I believe they should be able to freely follow theQuran or any other system they want, they do not believe I should be living outside the Quran.
I see the neoKKKon who fancies himself a libertarian is still posting war propaganda.
I wouldn’t be surprised if you were a KKKristian fundie as well. You have all the symptoms.
Not very constructive Juan.
Your point? You said that there are people that hate free societies. There is not a free society on the planet. Or do you still buy into the 8 year old propaganda that the U.S. is the leader of the “free world”?
The belligerence is getting tiring.
wow very intelligent. I happen to have seen and discused these things with these people how many of you have been inthe middle of two groups of Afghans arguing pro and ani American setiment. Islamic fundamentalist may be a very misused term these days but the groups i refer to like it and all its connotations. as for war propaganda where am i saying we ought to go policing the globe for these people in thier on lands.
You don’t have to read my posts. Just skip them. Or are you referring to the belligerence of Josh’s plans, which he clearly stated include invading any country and murdering the locals.
not at all I think that many americans are the most enslaved because they falsly believe they are free. However because most americans believe in the Idea of freedom even though they no longer understand what that means it produces a target for those against freedom
Dunno. Still way less destructive than what people like Josh do.
And yet they haven’t killed 1/100th of the westerners that the west has killed of muslims.
So who is the bad guy, when the west has killed millions of Muslims, most of them civilians, and the Muslims have killed what, 15,000 westerners in the last decade?
Islamic fundamentalism is a lot of propaganda. When you’re getting wiped out 100 or 200 to 1, and your countries smashed and invaded, and your corrupt government subsidized by Washington, and your religion and culture under attack, you’re going to breed hate and resentment. And dare I say it, with damn good cause. Americans and the British have been messing around in Middle Eastern affairs and politics for decades.
I think you betray a fundamental ignorance not just about the state, but about the state’s carefully crafted lies about how Mustafa the barber and Abdullah the butcher (pun intended) are just itching to come to America and take your freedoms away. All war propaganda has always served to create a vicious foreign enemy and to dehumanize them. Go look at WWII propaganda posters of the Japanese, where they were drawn like devil people, to make their race look evil.
You’re probably very committed to go abroad and serve. I hope you do not get injured, and I hope you do not injure anyone else.