Why are you a libertarian?

User-managed groups Libertarian Party
1

So I’ve been wondering, are most of libertarians because of our moral or utilitarian views? Or both. And as a member of the Libertarian party how far do you want to go? Do you want to slowley remove the state althogether or just make it exceedingly small? To what extent do you want the party to go?

I want to see the state slowley peeled away until eventually private defence companies can take over defence and we arrive at a voluntary society.

I see the biggest problem that we may face in this respect is what happened to the old liberals and after gaining some ground we become less fervorous in our fight and dissolve into somthing conservative,

2

I think that this conclusion “to dissolve in something conservative” is a consequence of Information and Experience. As one of the elder users here, I realice that many Ideas are not really wrong or bad - but they would simply not work in practice. (As it is with communism - and most -isms in general.)

To understand this is the consequence of better understanding of history, society and even market economics. For example: If you take a closer and open minded look on the late centuries of the Roman Empire and the early Middle Ages in central Europe you can see that the total lack of State in combination with free markets does infact lead just to the absence of free markets and in consequence to low living standards.

The problem of a lack of organisation is always that there do arise structures that make a business out of stealing. From the point of view of the single victim it is desireble to be robbed just by one robber.

Just immagine you to be a robber: You have some friends and some guns. How would you work in a little World in which you are the only Robber-Gang? Would you kill your victims and take everything from theim so they would lose the possibility to continue with production? The consequence of doing this would be that sooner or later there is nobody and nothing left you can stealf from. People woul try to flee or starve or become robbers, too. So as a rational Robber within a small world you would try to optimize your income throgh keeping the productivity of your victims as high as possible. You would not kill them - and you would not take away things that they need for production. State is such a robber.

On the other hand - immagine you as a robber competing with other robbers within a small world. Of course you could agree with these collegues on some sort of territory - monopoly for each one. (like for example Gangs in soutern american bidon-villes do - or warlords do and did).But this would be already some sort of territory&organisation= State!

But if you cannot find an agreement with thise colleques - you would have to steal again as much as possible from each of your victims just in order to maximize your income and keep even the income of your competitiors as small as possible. The victim would be anyway stripped by somebody - so it´s better for you that it was you who did it -and not one of your competitors.

This is basically the reason why States are better than anarchy - and why democracy is better than tyranny. The only remaining question is how to keep this State under control so he would not develop to just an organisation that would try to maximize its incomes and powers.

Therefore I higly support the Thoughts of Persons like Ron Paul. Yes it was a great Idea to organize Society. But this State would have to work under good and clear rules (laws/constitution) and remain under the people´s control. So it would not develop to some Organisation of organized and maximized Theft.

3

I do not know if it is possible to slowly remove the state, but I do feel we can make the effort. I am completely anti-state at this point in my views. I became a libertarian about a decade ago with minarchist views, and I have crossed completely into anarchist beliefs. I do not believe a state can exist without destruction, theft and oppression.

I do not see conservative as an option for my beliefs. I do see myself as liberal in my thought process. I have a serious issue with a conservative thought process and the logic that many conservatives use to reach their conclusions. They embrace too much government force, and I see many of their stances as simply attempting to conserve their white suburban way of life.

Anarchy and Freedom is what I want.

4

I agree with PJC. I am skeptical of the idea that we can whittle down the state through voting. I do think that the LP is useful for educational outreach, but only if the message is principled. Obviously, some of the Libertarian candidates communicate a more libertarian message than others.

Eventually, we will reach the tipping point, and real, lasting change will come. In the mean time, we need to keep winning over the minds of the public.

5

This is an interesting question. I am thinking of two ways I can interpret the question. What moral reasons do I have for being a libertarian now or what process led me to being a libertarian? The two are related, but different. I’ve been thinking about the latter recently, so here goes.

There are a couple of statements I have made in the past, which coupled with the responses really illustrate my thinking at that time.

Going back almost ten years, having a discussion with a young man I made the statement, “There is no form of government that will work right now. The separation of church and state was great, but until someone figures out how to separate corporations from state, any government is going to be corrupt. If some day there is a massive spiritual awakening and people realize that it is good for them to help each other then we won’t need a government. At that point any government or no government would work.” The man’s response was something along the lines of “we’ll always need a government, there has to be some organization! Someone to build the roads, etc.”

So at that point in my life you can see that I saw the inherent problems with government but I felt that somehow we needed government. Also, the young man’s response had a very strong effect on me. I saw government then as an organizing force and that without government people are unable to self-organize. Clearly, at that point I did not define government properly as a group with a monopoly on violence and taxation over a certain geographic area.

About 6 years ago I made the statement “unbridled capitalism will ultimately lead to one company swallowing another, over and over until you have only one “mega-corporation” left and no competition so the free market will cease to exist.” My friend’s marvelously simple response was “you think that because you don’t understand economics.” He also expanded a bit further on the point saying how in truly free markets, it sometimes hurts a companies competitive edge to increase in size, the government must intervene in order to subsidize the artificially large company.

It is amazing how sometimes you are actually listening. That little exchange was the watershed moment in my becoming a libertarian. It took several more years for me to find the Austrians, but I believe I was a libertarian from that moment forward.

One of the most important moments in my growth as a libertarian was when I questioned Ron Paul’s position on the gold standard. I remember thinking at the time that it was “silly” and that it didn’t matter. I agreed with everything else he spoke about, and felt that he should remove this from his platform, because it wasn’t important and it will make him so much more approachable to the general populace. How wrong I was! The first reading I did on that matter was the short writeup by Greenspan “Gold and Economic Freedom.” This short article continued the libertarian revolution in my mind.

I think it is quite useful for us to recall our own personal accounts or stories about how we became libertarians. I doubt many of us were just born libertarian. If we remember how we changed our thinking, maybe we can better help other people understand where we are coming from and also we can be more understanding of where they currently are in their thinking. It wasn’t too long ago that I thought the gold standard was a pointless argument that didn’t matter! As simple and obvious as it is to me that free banking is needed in this country, I try not be on such a moral high horse about it all.

I started as a libertarian for utilitarian reasons, but over the years I have definitely changed to the moral type. I believe, like Rothbard said, that even if the free market wasn’t the most efficient system, we still should use it. A man’s right to his property and to not be aggressed against is a stronger argument than the utility of a free market economy.

6

I’m a member of the LP and my libertarianism is generally utilitarian.

Waiting for the collapse is fine and dandy, but you’ll be waiting a long time. As someone with experience in a much more regulated, statist, and overall more economically-insane country (Turkey), I can tell you that it will take a lot more than hyper-inflation, unfunded liabilities, runaway spending, or an overextended military to shrink or replace government. Actually, these things tend to make government even bigger.

I feel the LP wastes time and resources running federal government candidates and should instead focus on local elections, particularly in places with a slightly stronger culture of liberty (New Hampshire, Texas, etc)

7

My education in the LP began when I was 13 and an uncle who is still in the LP would talk to me about libertarianism and free market economy. I did not give it much thought then but it was the germ of a seed that was planted then and has grown over time and now in theese times of enprecedented government expansion and an economy that is imploding on itself the ideas have come to full bloom to continue the metaphor. So I think my libertarism is organic or natural and totally expected after years of cultivation.

8

well I see I killed this topic what should we discuss next?

9

The price of tea in China. I here there’s a lot of inflation over there.

10

the price is high so they can make the money to lend us. As far as inflation there is plenty here.

11

Erhan,

I don’t understand connection you are making between “waiting for the collapse” or not and being utilitarian or not? I’m not 100% sure what you mean by “waiting for the collapse,” but I am pretty sure that the stance taken on that is different than the underlying philosophy behind one’s flavor of libertarianism.

It seems to me that the utilitarian position of libertarianism is that individual property rights are good because they allow the most efficient economy to operate which is of greatest benefit to mankind. The “moral libertarian” position is one that believes individual property rights to be the ultimate end. The fact that a society which observes these rights winds up also having the best economic system as a result, is an additional feather in the cap of freedom, but is not the reason itself.

12

Well, if we separate morality and efficiency, we are left with millions of subjective views.

I tend to combine the two. Libertarianism is moral because it is the most efficient. Alternatively, Libertarianism is the most efficient and thus the most moral order.

As for the whole waiting for the collapse thing, I may of misunderstood prior posts, but I was referring to libertarian-leaning folks who don’t vote or support the LP or other liberty-leaning candidates/organizations/etc. Some argue these are not ‘pure’ or that they are ‘sellouts’ but I take a pragmatic approach. This means I’ll support the LP, liberty minded Republicans (like Ron Paul), and even Democrats/socialists if they are pushing for certain liberty-leaning moves such as gay rights, marijuana legalization, etc.

Take for example the cat-fight between The Mises Institute & Cato. A lot of wasted effort back-and-forth when there’s room for synergy.

13

I have always been a libertarian,it just took me a long time to find it.I have always took an interest in current affairs and had a political view but my beliefs never fitted in well with the 3 main parties in the UK,and after 13 long years of the Labour party ,slowly taking away more and more of our freedom,the government getting bigger and bigger more intrusive,i started looking around again,looking for something.I started reading some blogs which happened to hold libertarian views,found Mises,and read Harry Brownes “Why Government doesn’t Work” I can’t believe it took so long.

I am totally anti-state,and i see the arguments with the Anarchists that if you vote your a selling out,but in Britain its tribal,labour,Tories,Lib Dems people will always vote for them regardless,and there are so many people getting something off the state in benefits,i think you have to fight it from within,you have to fight them at their own game to get the message out there,to educate people.

What i want is a truly free society.