Why coercion is an essential and beneficial element of maximal-capitalist society.

Whatever the cost of security guards, fences, and alarms are.

Let the market figure it out. If people really want to stay alive (which they do) they will probably purchase enough military defense.

You are making the mistake of comparing concepts to things. You should compare things to things. For example, backrubs and ham give you hapiness. Security gives you property rights and peace… you can assess the cost of security.

Property rights usually aren’t asserted over things that have no value. I could homestead a barren piece of land, but instead choose the more fertile one.

Defending the resource for its own sake DOES have an economic output - its psychological value to the holder. This value is quantified by the price mechanism…

At any rate, to recap, you are focusing on a false dichotomy between “aesthetics” and “economics”. The two concepts are completely intertwined. Economies will always be the result of subjective preferences. The price mechanism distributes resources to more economic ends depending on how subjective preferences and purchasing power play out. There is no need for a force mechanism.

Additionally, “the market” is not the only basis of law or exchange in anarcho-capitalism. I’ve put forward social-law as a plausible means of providing order in ancapland. Social mechanisms will also likely provide many other goods and services outside of the formal monetary economy. Family, friendship, friendly socieities etc.

If it is not for sale then it isn’t being under-utilized.

Think about it.

A good view can very easily provide more value than a factory built on the same location. Value is subjective. Who are you to declare it would provide more value to tear down one thing and replace it with another? Only the property owner can decide that.

Murder exists. I get that. That doesn’t mean it’s justified. I think this goes without saying but you seem to be incredibly confused.

srsly, you, jon irenicus, filc, sam armstrong, angurse, giant_joe, andrew cain, et al should form a league of extraordinary gentlemen to educate the ignorant masses with your brilliance.

What the hell do you think this website is for? That’s exactly what this forum is, stupid references aside.

These threads make me think that Mises may have been wrong on polylogism. :wink:

According to whom are those resources not being utilized to maximum economic benefit of society?

It is not faith that leads us to believe in markets. On the other hand it is entirely by faith that you believe everyone will turn into savage warlord.

If it is not for sale then it isn’t being under-utilized.

Think about it.–azure

I have thought about it.

myriad private enterprises have gone bankrupt without being offered for sale prior to failing.

by your definition, if a company is not for sale, it is not falling. Moreover, an environmentalist who refuses to exploit hundreds of billions of dollars in energy and mineral resources to preserve the natural integrity of the landscape is foregoing economic benefit for some aesthetic benefit.

while this aesthetic value has benefit, it cannot protect this property from predation from more profit motivated individuals and enterprises.

think about that.

A good view can very easily provide more value than a factory built on the same location. Value is subjective. Who are you to declare it would provide more value to tear down one thing and replace it with another? Only the property owner can decide that.–azure

if you claim that a “view” is more productive economically than you should have an economically accurate measure of the increased economic productivity of your “view” than using the resource for some other economic purpose.

for example, what is your unit of measure for “views” ?

what is the price per unit of your “view” compared to the price of a gallon of gas $2.75 ?

in sum, you dont have a clue how much economic value your “view” represents. It is similar to the economic calculation problem that marxists encounter. moreover, individuals, enterprises, and societies that are driven by profit as opposed to aesthetic goals will be more economically successful and hence have more capital in which to wage war and defend valued resources.

Murder exists. I get that. That doesn’t mean it’s justified. I think this goes without saying but you seem to be incredibly confused.–azure

virtually all societies have used warfare to attain both economic and philosophical ends.

In many cases, these actions were done in response to a survival level threat from a competitor. whether it is justified or not is subjective. the point is that it is the responsibility of owners of valued resources to provide adequate defense for their property or resources as history has shown that failure to do so will result in loss by predation.

In sum, pacifist ancaps do not have the emotional or intellectual wherewithal to understand and use coercion to gain and hold power. until they figure that out, they will remain fringe and irrelevant.

According to whom are those resources not being utilized to maximum economic benefit of society? — filc

the market.

actors who do not exploit valued resources effectively will not have the capital needed to defend these resources with a force commensurate with the true value of the resource.

for example, an environmentalist who refuses to exploit his land for its oil and mineral resources will see his land annexed by an investor who recognizes the true value of the resource. Moreover, the new owner will utilize the resource more effectively thereby increasing overall societal prosperity and productivity. also, the new owner will have more capital in which to defend the resource which reduces the risk of further conflict.

It is not faith that leads us to believe in markets. On the other hand it is entirely by faith that you believe everyone will turn into savage warlord.–filc

strawman.

produce the quote in which I said “everyone will turn into savage warlord(s)”

What the hell do you think this website is for? That’s exactly what this forum is, stupid references aside.–sam

and you have been at the forefront of educating the ignorant masses sam with your razor sharp wit and arguments.

thanks again dude.

obviously, I stand corrected on all points.

If this were the case then those resources would be potentially up for transaction on the market. Confiscating property by force however is not a form of market activity. Are you arguing that it is? Market activity does not involve violence. Or as Azure said

Perhaps you should think about it again.

Where did we say that? And why does it matter whether a company is shown to fail or not fail? What does that have to do with anything? Also what is considerd as “failing” is a matter of opinion Retropper, or have you forgotten that?

An enterprise’s direction is being moved at the hand of the owners or management of some sort. If he/they mis-guides it then consumers will move elsewhere. If he drives his business to the ground, well who are you to judge the methods he used to try and succeed? For all we know he wanted to drive his business to the ground. It’s not open for analysis. You are not a central planner.

You can sit back in your high-horse and pretend you know how better to manage business and allocate resources, but we would all know you as the socialist planning fraud.

Look my friend we have talked about this before. If your going to use the word it would help you to understand its meaning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Explain how it is a strawman?

Also explain to us why you keep calling us “Faith Based”, and explain to us how by contrast you are not a “Faith Based” socialist, and then furthermore explain to me what it has to do with the discussion at hand?

Is it or is it not your position that PDA’s will tend to become hegemonic PDA’s? Did you or did you not say that violence and war is profitable? Do you REALLY want me to quote you Retropper?

Isn’t that the premise of your entire platform? Are you confused about what even you stand for now?

This has got to be the silliest thread on this board.

Look at the argumentation styles employed on this thread. IT is specifically designed to drag others down the garbage shoot into a very sad, pathetic, and logically erroneous discussion. For example…

Things like

And anytime someone actually even attempts to introduce logic or reasoning back into the discussion, Retropper wittingly responds with

OR something like that, then completly ignores the point addressed. So the chance to even critically analyze his argument or ours, as a mutual attempt to find a truth, is entirely thrown out the window.

He also says every other post is a strawman, often times out of place in contexts that make no sense. Which leads me to believe he saw someone here use it first, then just adopted it and ad-hoc uses the word “StrawMan” at random on various points.

So in sum, it should be no suprise to us that these threads, and others presented by Retropper are essentially threads of garbage. I can’t think of a worse way of debating then those tactics presented here on these threads.

You ever notice how I never have to proceed beyond the first sentence?

So let’s address your claim going point by point through everything your claim is based on…

Positive societal change is valued resources being used to maximum economic benefit.

Positive societal change is more revenue and better exploitation of resources.

Positive societal change is annexing resources by force when it can’t be obtained by peaceful means.

Positive societal change is using coercion to insure societal growth and prosperity when peaceful means are not profitable.

Please post the address of anyone who believes everything above is positive societal change so I can test out a utility of coercion theory when the SHTF and just shoot those bastards in order for society to evolve into that faith based, pacifist, voluntaryism you keep referring to.

seiben,

Even if 99% of companies did fail, the 1% still around would obviously be enough to satisfy market demand (or else the others wouldn’t have failed in the first place).

this statement offers nothing to rebut my assertion that an under utilized, under defended valued resource will not be annexed by force from a profit motivated PDA funded by profit driven investors ?

This is an objection to markets for law. I think markets for law can work better than state law, but I prefer, and most anarchists implicitly advocate social-law. That is, legal services produced without regard for individual wealth or status in the market.

ancap society offers no substantive checks, balances, decentralization, or transparency of the PDA industry that would forestall the emergence of local, regional, and national hegemon cartel.

after this, the establishment of absolutism is assured in order to reduce the costs and conflict associated with competition among disparate PDAs.

It is chiefly because of this that we cannot have a state. A monopoly arbitrator must be avoided at all costs.

ancap society offers no substantive checks, balances, decentralization, or transparency of the arbitration industry that would forestall the emergence of local, regional, and national hegemon cartel.

in sum, profit is the motivation of the dominant PDAs and arbitration agencies.

PDAs and arbitration agencies that subordinate profits for some other goal will fail relative to profit driven enterprises.

if one society invests more in war machines than the other, it would be able to take them over. They still have the incentive to trade between eachother though, so even if war is profitable, trade is more profitable still

trade has increased throughout recorded history, yet the frequency and severity of warfare has increased in parallel.

moreover, not all valued resources can be exchanged by peaceful means. often one or both actors will not trade – then coercion will be considered.

in sum, your assertion only applies when both parties volutarily submit to peaceful exchange. this is not always possible.

Even if you don’t buy that, if one society begins to pose a threat to other societies, the price of security will be bid up, bringing the under-protected consumers up to snuff with whoever is threatening them.

if the price of security is bid up, then those owners of valued resources who have under utlized their resources will not have the capital to provide necessary defense.

You’re basically claiming that the market might have a shortage of security. There are no shortages on free markets.

no, there will never be a shortage. however, malinvesting owners of valued resources will not have the means to defend their property or resources.

Even people who just wanna make money do so by catering to aesthetic desires. A good example is plastic surgeons.

fine, you malinvest your money on improving your personal appearance then the likelihood your property will be annexed by force increases due to reduced expenditures on defense.

This false dichotomy again… You can’t not be driven by profit. If I trade your pizza for my wristwatch, we both profit. How much? Don’t know the $$$, but we both profit subjectively.

you make the false assertion that every valued resource is for sale.

Depends how bad everyone else wants to stay alive. If they’re humans, its probably a lot. They’d be willing to put most of their income to security.

true, the security industry in ancap society will be huge.

that increases the likelihood that a hegemon cartel will emerge and establish hegemon status.

Actually if I reduce my profits and invest more in military expansion, I’ll do even better. Profit is revenue - costs. Consumers want to pay you as little revenue as possible. You maximize profit by getting your costs as low as possible. The profit driven military is very very lean. The might-driven military probably has awful profits because its costs are so high. – seiben

in this statement you are advocating a “profit driven” military in contrast to a military that invests in capital improvement .

In order to have military might, they have to actually put the resources towards gunz. So your argument really does reduce to “the society that puts more resources into military will have a better military”.

in this statement you are advocating a military forego profits to invest in “gunz”

when you make-up your mind, I will respond.

in reality, the PDA that finds the most efficient balance between operations and capital improvements will emerge as one of the hegemon PDAs. nonetheless, these PDAs will look for underdefended valued resources to annex in order to increase profits to fund both operations and “gunz”

I don’t need guns to stop my friends from taking my stuff. I do need some security to stop strangers though. It just depends…

if a society places trust and friendship ahead of profits, it wont be in power long.

why?

because a society that presupposes that it can reduce defense expenditures because of a subjective value judgment like friendship will have resources that are under defended due to an incalcuable “friendship” dividend.

It will render them less useful than they are in more primitive economies. The more trade interdependence there is, the less people will have to gain by attacking eachother.

again, not all resources will be available for trade. moreover, if trade was a deterrent to conflict than this dynamic would be reflected in the global geopolitik (which has always been anarchic) — in contrast, as trade has increased so has conflict.

Depends on the stakes. I would say its worth a lot but difficult to procure.

your right,

ancap societies would devout substantial societal resources to defense. as a result, the PDA industry would be huge and conflict would be frequent.

I’ll pay for security till I benefit less from additional security than i would from spending money on something else.

obviously, you support my assertion that security is needed in ancap society. moreover, if it is required, then those individuals, firms, and societies that underfunded security would be subject to predation.

hence proving my assertion that underfunded, under utilized valued resources would be more likely to be annexed by force.

You can’t put an economic value on concepts, but you can put economic value on things that LEAD to those concepts.

it is intuitive that if an individual, firm, society spends more on satisfying aesthetic goals versus security then they risk predation at the hands of a more security oriented firm or society.

If ur not blowin stuff up, u got more stuff.

not so,

if the stuff you covet is not for sale.

then the only method to obtain it is by coercion.

Look at the argumentation styles employed on this thread. IT is specifically designed to drag others down the garbage shoot into a very sad, pathetic, and logically erroneous discussion. For example…-- filc

then why are you here ?

are you a masochist ?

live_free_or _die

coercion to remove statist structures would unquestionably result in positive societal change.

moreover, coercion used to force the reallocation of scarce resources from heretofore unprofiable and inefficient uses to more efficient and productive uses is positive.

my point is that pacifist ancaps who discount the utility of coercion to obtain wealth, power, and security will remain irrelevent and fringe.

in sum, coercion will be part and parcel of ancap society (if any emerge), irrespective of the emotional handwringing of a few faith-based ancap posers. if a profit can be obtain through the implementation of force, then force it is.

How is this not an antagonistic post?

Rettoper,

I’ve deleted all of your “league of extraordinary gentlemen” posts. I said no more whining posts, and I meant it.

seiben,

Let the market figure it out. If people really want to stay alive (which they do) they will probably purchase enough military defense.

yes, military expenditures will be high in ancap society because the stakes and the value of resources will be higher then in inefficient and unproductive statist societies.

in sum, defense expenditures will parallel the value of the resources being defended. since ancap society is more prosperous, defense spending will be far greater than expenditures today.

You are making the mistake of comparing concepts to things. You should compare things to things. For example, backrubs and ham give you hapiness. Security gives you property rights and peace… you can assess the cost of security.

you misunderstood my question.

for example, how do you determine the security expense of a the following two properties (1) the arctic national wildlife refuge and (2) an area of comparable size in the southwest desert.

note that ANWR has significant oil reserves .

Property rights usually aren’t asserted over things that have no value. I could homestead a barren piece of land, but instead choose the more fertile one.

then you understand that a fertile piece of real estate requires a greater defense expenditure then a barren piece of land. Moreover, if you didnt farm the fertile land then you wouldnt have the required revenue to fund an appropriate level of defense.

so my assertion is that a valued resource must be utilized effectively or the owner will not have the resources required to provide for a level of defense that corresponds to the value of the property or resource.

in turn, a capitalist we recognizes the real value of the resource and who can efficiently manage it to maximum societal benefit will be motivated to fund a PDA in order to take the resource by force.

society benefits because a heretofore under utilized resource is now open to the markets thereby increasing societal wealth.

Defending the resource for its own sake DOES have an economic output - its psychological value to the holder. This value is quantified by the price mechanism…

how are you going to fund the defense of a resource that does not generate any income ?

psychological value is not marketable.

however, if your resource had no economic utility, you wouldnt need to defend it since nobody would want it for economic reasons.

paradoxically, you would be forced to expend resources to defend it from morons that coveted the land for psychological value it offers. individuals, firms, and societies that expended scarce resources to defend economically useless resourced for psychological reasons wouldnt last long in open competition with individuals, firms, and societies motivated by profit.

At any rate, to recap, you are focusing on a false dichotomy between “aesthetics” and “economics”. The two concepts are completely intertwined. Economies will always be the result of subjective preferences. The price mechanism distributes resources to more economic ends depending on how subjective preferences and purchasing power play out. There is no need for a force mechanism.

my argument is simple.

if a valued resources is under utilized economically then the owner will not have the economic wherewithal to defend it. hence it will be subject to annexation by investors who recognize the true economic value of the resource and contract a PDA to take it by force.

moreover, owners of valued resources who place aesthetic considerations above economic and security considerations in the management of valued resources will see the likelihood of the resource being attacked increase

I’ve put forward social-law as a plausible means of providing order in ancapland. Social mechanisms will also likely provide many other goods and services outside of the formal monetary economy. Family, friendship, friendly socieities etc.

ancap society is driven by profit, not utopian aesthetic goals.

if you redirect resources and capital toward attainment of aesthetic goals then you sacrifice on security and defense thereby increasing the likelihood that individual, company, and societal resources will be taken by coercion.

in sum, ancap society is based on profit. hence the name maximal-capitalist. as opposed to maximal-friendship or maximal-family or maximal-egalitarianism

[FOR POSTS SUCH AS THESE, USE THE MEMBER ISSUES FORUM.]

Notice I said “optimal.” If nobody wants to buy a sinking asset to keep it afloat, then that asset will and should fade into nothingness. Minerals laying in the ground whose value to society is less than the costs of extracting them will and should stay there.

Your whole Might Makes Right thing is really, really annoying. And your “If we don’t steal everyone’s money to provide for a military we’ll get invaded” line is the oldest one in the book. Come back with a criticism that doesn’t get blasted down every friggin week.