Why coercion is an essential and beneficial element of maximal-capitalist society.

Oke; I’m going to try to approach this from a different angle. I have no hope in convincing Rettoper; but maybe this is interesting for the innocent bystander. As some might now, I’m a graduate in philosophy, but I’ve taken some courses in economics and political science, because, as Mises said, in order to be an economist, one must be a generalist. This is also true for philosophy. I’m going to approach this from a political science perspective. This is, however, not my main subject, so if anyone has any comments, feel free to add.

The central idea, I think, of Rettoper is that there is a constant struggle for resources and (relative) power relations, which will go unchecked in an anarchist world, but in a democratic world they will be checked. In international relations theory - the study of the global system of politics, in this day and age, the study of the interactions between states - there are 2 checks on democratic government: internal (‘the people don’t want it’) and external (‘other countries might retaliate’). Rettoper has referred to democratic peace theory a couple of times. I, basically, agree with a softer version of this theory, something like: democratic nations don’t fight high resource-consuming, enduring wars. This is an empirical generalizations, but there is some relatively clear conceptual theory behind it. (Democratic peace theory does not say that democracies don’t fight war. Some theories regarding democratic peace even predict that democracies might even indulge into the most terrible wars vis a vis non-democracies, e.g. the democratic peace theory based on the electorate theory.)

My ‘favorite’ theory in IR is a combination of constructivist thought - you really want to read Wendt’s his ‘Anarchy is what states make of it’ - and the English school (especially Bull’s ‘Anarchical Society’). The main idea is that ‘anarchy’ at the state level doesn’t predict anything (or at least: not that much). This is because anarchy only means there is no overarching world government, but it doesn’t mean that there is only one game that can be played (unlike the realists, who say it’s only a striving for power - or relative power, if one reads someone like Waltz.) But the problem with the ‘power struggle’ is this: why doesn’t the USA attack something like Panama? It would be a piece of cake! The idea is that ideology matters though at the state level; you couldn’t justify a war against panama because it’s a relative democracy and not at this current moment a thread to the USA. Another example is, say, Venezuela, which is a thread to a lot of American ‘resources’ (companies and all) there. There is, however, no war at this moment. Other examples can be constructed. The idea is that to choose for war ideology matters and one can’t just justify a war. Another thing related is shared conceptions. If the UK would announce that they would increase their nuclear weapons, the (American) reaction would be different than if, say, Iran said they are going to stock up, no? The idea is that even in anarchy there can be cooperation and shared values, even if there is no overarching hierarchy. It doesn’t follow that the UK always does what to USA wants - choose any other Western Nation if you don’t agree with the UK example.

The main reason why I’m saying this that it’s unclear to me why Rettoper thinks why similar mechanisms won’t play a part in an anarchist society. He has commented a lot that a PDA only can aim for profit, because you can’t pay an army with psychological benefits. But this doesn’t follow. In IR; one of the main reasons why there is peace between Western-Europe and the USA is a shared conception of the good, mutual cooperation between the citizens, etc. Why is it that unlikely that this won’t happen between PDA’s?

Even if one accepts the (neo-)realist theory of Waltz; i.e. that states aim for relative power (you’re not aiming to be the hegemone; you are aiming to be relatively unattractive to be attacked. You can do this by force or by cooperation); why can’t similar effects come in to play? It’s not clear why the ‘monopoly of coercion over a given territory’ or ‘democracy’ change the way that this game is played. The way I read these theories is that it’s a theory of international relations; which happens to be states. But ‘democracy’ is a decesion making process, that for this purpose can be substituted by market preferences and the monopoly of coercion also isn’t that relevant - the fact that they are they are the organization that provide safety and judicial services is. But again; if you look at standard IR theory - which assumes sort of anarchy - and they predict peace because of it, what’s the quintessential difference between ‘the state’ and ‘the pda’ so that the pda will cause a wave of violence and ‘the state’ won’t (in the face of other ‘states’). The whole theory of ‘underevaluated resources’ is also relevant in the world we live in - i.e. with states - so why doesn’t the USA attack Luxemburg or whatever?

You write very long essay posts. I’ve decided its more productive if I cut things down to the core issues. If I miss something, please let me know.

  1. Military expenditures

It cannot be known a priori how much will need to be dedicated to security, just like any other commodity. An ancap society that is “maximally economic” may not be maximally military. A max-economic society probably produces lots of leisure goods and sports cars for its citizens. A less economic society that spent more on tanks would have more military power.

  1. Aesthetic vs. Economic

You use the word “aesthetic” to refer to religious, environmental, etc actions. These are just a subset of the subjective wants and needs each individual has. Wanting to live or produce tons of steel is also subjective and “aesthetic”. So your conception of economic - producing stuff - is aesthetic too and doesn’t really make a difference.

Your argument then comes down to - people with impractical aesthetics will be more impractical than people with practical aesthetics. I would think that this rule applies to any system, state or ancap.

  1. Profit

Profit=revenues-costs. One man’s revenue is another man’s cost. In an attempt to maximize profits, both parties minimize their costs and in doing so spend as few resources as possible. You claim that people who do not use land to its maximal economic benefit will be unable to defend it. I claim that if people really maximize profit, they will minimize security expenditures. The people most able to defend land are the ones who overinvest in security, and don’t maximize their profits.

  1. Social mechanisms

You have to realize that ancapland is not just about making money. There are all these other ways to produce goods, but they aren’t talked about by ancaps a whole lot (unfortunately). I really think that social-law is the best way to have common law in any society. That is, law that is not purchased but rather provided by fraternal or friendly associations. Its more egalitarian that way… which is good because free market advocates presuppose egalitarian property rights.

Adrian you seem lost, let me introduce you to the rettoper mindset.

Liberal democracies are constitutionally restricted to not attack other liberal democracies. PDAs aren’t, they can attack each other.

Liberal democracies have voter feedback, and suffer no economical calculation problem. PDAs have profit feedback and suffer calculation problems because its profitable to wage war.

Liberal democracies won’t turn against it’s citizens because it doesn’t react to profit and corruption. PDAs will turn against citizens whenever is profitable, and it’s almost always profitable to rob people and wreck face.

Liberal democracies may try to wage war against third world countries once in a while, but PDAs will do it constantly.

Liberal democracies have all the incentives to do all the above. PDAs have no incentive to not do all of the above.

There, I just helped rettoper a little bit by saving him the need to answer to you.

The reason why people are being jerks is because you won’t make a simple summary of what your conclusions are. Are you talkign about whether PDA will engage in non voluntary behavior of whether they should. You keep confusing the two and mixing and matching as you go along.

In sum, coercion is sometimes necessary to insure societal growth and prosperity when peaceful means are not possible or profitable. the faith-based notion by many ancaps on this site that anarchism is peaceful is not supported by logic and free market mechanisms.


Let us just take that statement as a example of the confusing style of argument.

  1. Coercion is necessary for societal growth (let alone what societal growth is)

  2. Therefore anarchism is not peaceful due to the free market mechanism in action in point 1.

Let us first consider that anarchism is not meant as a tool for societal growth (you never justified this position)

Let us also consider that any mention of free market including coercion is a contradiction in terms.

A true argument (if you were so honest) based on your above point would be:

1B. I prefer that economy would grow as fast as possible for the average person

2B. In my style of society, I would allow PDA’s to annex what I feel like are underutilized resources.

Now notice the conclusion 2A and 2B are quite different aren;t they?

azure,

Notice I said “optimal.” If nobody wants to buy a sinking asset to keep it afloat, then that asset will and should fade into nothingness. Minerals laying in the ground whose value to society is less than the costs of extracting them will and should stay there.

Not necessarily,

the economic value of resources can change with advances in technology.

the oil sands in the green river formation were economically worthless a few short years ago. however, as the price of oil increases and the technology to retrieve this oil advances, this asset will increase in value.

note that owners of valued resources who do not use emerging technologies to exploit their valued resources more effectively will see their resources annexed by investors and PDAs who keep pace with technological advancements.

Your whole Might Makes Right thing is really, really annoying.

You have to deal with the argument on its merit and not be biased by moral preconceptions as is the case with other ancaps.

And your “If we don’t steal everyone’s money to provide for a military we’ll get invaded” line is the oldest one in the book. Come back with a criticism that doesn’t get blasted down every friggin week.

false, not everyone will be subject to predation – only the inefficient.

the owners of valued resources that efficiently exploit the resource will have earned enough capital to properly defend the resource from predation.

in contrast, those owners who are negligent in allowing the resource to be under utlized to the overall detriment of societal wealth will not have the capital needed to defend the resource.

I don’t think anyone is arguing coercion has utility, but for what end?

adrainhealey,

btw, nice description of a variant of democratic peace theory and the machinations in the current anarchic geopolitic.

The main reason why I’m saying this that it’s unclear to me why Rettoper thinks why similar mechanisms won’t play a part in an anarchist society.

read my posts, I didnt say that 100% of an individual, firm, and society’s effort would be toward profit — I stated that those firms and societies who were more focused on profit seeking versus aesthetic goals would eventually emerge economically stronger ( hence militarily stronger) for obvious reasons.

He has commented a lot that a PDA only can aim for profit, because you can’t pay an army with psychological benefits.

making a profit is the only purpose of a firm. any other goals that subordinate profit seeking will make the firm economically less competitve. In the PDA industry this is dangerous for obvious reasons.

But this doesn’t follow. In IR; one of the main reasons why there is peace between Western-Europe and the USA is a shared conception of the good, mutual cooperation between the citizens, etc. Why is it that unlikely that this won’t happen between PDA’s?

of course, if liberal democracies dominated the geopolitik we would have relative global peace – see europe, western hemisphere, and asian pacific rim under US hegemony. This is because the goal of liberal democracies is the spread of liberty. ONce this has been accomplished the need for wars of ideology will be removed. In contrast, ancap society is founded on the principle of economic freedom – hence maximal-capitalism. as long as profits can be obtained by coercion, then coercion it is.

Even if one accepts the (neo-)realist theory of Waltz; i.e. that states aim for relative power (you’re not aiming to be the hegemone; you are aiming to be relatively unattractive to be attacked. You can do this by force or by cooperation); why can’t similar effects come in to play?

individuals seek to satisfy base needs – food, clothing, shelter. once these goals are met individuals working in concert with others will seek to obtain — security, wealth, power.

relative security is a zero-sum competition that requires some measure of coercion to obtain.

It’s not clear why the ‘monopoly of coercion over a given territory’ or ‘democracy’ change the way that this game is played. The way I read these theories is that it’s a theory of international relations; which happens to be states. But ‘democracy’ is a decesion making process, that for this purpose can be substituted by market preferences and the monopoly of coercion also isn’t that relevant - the fact that they are they are the organization that provide safety and judicial services is. But again; if you look at standard IR theory - which assumes sort of anarchy - and they predict peace because of it, what’s the quintessential difference between ‘the state’ and ‘the pda’ so that the pda will cause a wave of violence and ‘the state’ won’t (in the face of other ‘states’). The whole theory of ‘underevaluated resources’ is also relevant in the world we live in - i.e. with states - so why doesn’t the USA attack Luxemburg or whatever?

monopoly of coercion is not present in liberal democracy. the levers of coercion are restricted by checks, balances, decentralization, and transparency. Those that fund war (taxpayer), allocate funds (congress), receive funding (military), oversee military (congress), command military (civilian president), declares war (congress),provide intelligence (12+ civilian agencies), provide air power (air force), provide sea power (navy), provide ground forces (army), monitor the military (private media), militia (states), law enforcement (local govt.), provide weaponry (private industry), et al are all disparate and competing societal entities. Moreover, within liberal democracies, the machinations of each of these actors is transparent. history has shown that any scandals and schemes are immediately uncovered no matter how slight.

In contrast, within ancap society none of these checks, balances, decentralization, and transparency exist. A PDA would have control over all of these functions – more importantly, the PDA and its investors would reap all of the benefits from coercive action. This provides incentives for them to use coercion. In contrast, those that fund war in liberal democracies do not directly reap the benefits from successful execution of war so they are loath to support wars that are not ideological in nature.

seiben,

It cannot be known a priori how much will need to be dedicated to security, just like any other commodity.

true, thats why war would be relatively constant within ancap society since technology is dynamic and advancing. individual actors would have to be very nimble to keep pace and insure that their investments and resources were efficiently utilized and up-to-date.

An ancap society that is “maximally economic” may not be maximally military. A max-economic society probably produces lots of leisure goods and sports cars for its citizens. A less economic society that spent more on tanks would have more military power.

not true,

the most profit driven society would likely have the most guns AND butter. while the least profit driven would have to spend a greater percentage of output on military to keep pace.

In sum, the profit driven society (capitalist) could out produce the aesthetic driven society (pacifist, anarchist, religious, nationalist, et al) in both military and consumer goods.

You use the word “aesthetic” to refer to religious, environmental, etc actions. These are just a subset of the subjective wants and needs each individual has. Wanting to live or produce tons of steel is also subjective and “aesthetic”. So your conception of economic - producing stuff - is aesthetic too and doesn’t really make a difference.

Your argument then comes down to - people with impractical aesthetics will be more impractical than people with practical aesthetics. I would think that this rule applies to any system, state or ancap.

impractical is subjective. but, yes societies that focused on profits versus some aesthetic goals would have more capital in which to fund military expansion.

The people most able to defend land are the ones who overinvest in security, and don’t maximize their profits.

i disagree.

i think that those that identify the most efficient balance between profit and investment will be most successful.

I believe that overinvestment represents a malinvestment that would reduce the firms competitiveness. in contrast, PDAs and their investors who are growing through mergers, acquistions, and coercive takeovers would see their overall size increase making them a more formidable competitor.

in contrast, over emphasis on coercion and profit seeking would lead to a dangerous depreciation of assets (weaponry, personnel, et al).

one thing is certain, firms that are too aggressive or too passive in the PDA industry will soon be out of business.

You have to realize that ancapland is not just about making money.

then what is the difference between ancapland and the present anarchic geopolitik ?

I really think that social-law is the best way to have common law in any society. That is, law that is not purchased but rather provided by fraternal or friendly associations. Its more egalitarian that way

i think they have a name for what you are referring to — liberal democracy

… which is good because free market advocates presuppose egalitarian property rights.

i disagree,

in ancap society, property rights must be defended. they are not guaranteed by any law, legislature, or judiciary.

No Society can guarantee property rights. Not even your liberal democracy. Aside from that the Liberal Democracy must first violate your property rights, before it can defend them. It’s not much of a guarantee if it fails to accomplish it’s objective before it even starts.

Duh. You honestly think I don’t understand this? The same configuration of goods can change in optimality by a simple changing of consumer preferences. Unprofitable things can become profitable and vice-versa.

Think about it for just one second. A peaceful exchange of a resource being impossible means there is nothing anyone is willing to offer that the owner would accept to exchange it for. It means there can only be a loss in total utility by it changing hands. For coerced annexations doubly so, as the loss is multiplied on both sides. Do you see it now? Probably not.

This discussion is about utility. Your argument is that a man can steal something and increase total utility, because the gain for the theif is more than the victim’s loss. This is absolutely false.

I noticed you offered no addresses of people who believed in all of the positive societal change coericion has to offer. What would coercers possibly have to fear if they have the necessary force to do the coercing?

In sum, coercion is a part of the world and will always compete against non-coercion. Fortunately for my vision of fantasyland and the society fairytale the market share and free market demand to eliminate coercion is increasing. Pigs might actually start flying in a future society near you.

I don’t think anyone is arguing coercion has utility, but for what end? --larose

power, security, wealth.

azure,

Think about it for just one second. A peaceful exchange of a resource being impossible means there is nothing anyone is willing to offer that the owner would accept to exchange it for.

strawman. I never stated that peaceful exchange was impossible. In fact, I have stated repeatedly that peaceful exchange is more likely and more preferable to coercion.

It means there can only be a loss in total utility by it changing hands. For coerced annexations doubly so, as the loss is multiplied on both sides. Do you see it now? Probably not.

in the event that the owner of a valued resources being inefficiently managed does not want to sell – then coercion is the only means available to insure that the resource changes ownership and is more efficiently exploited to the overall benefit of society.

if an insecticide can be used to save tens of millions of lives is being denied to the market for nefraious environmental motives, then the use of coercion to release this resource into the market would be beneficial and humanitarian at the same time.

in sum, there are numerous examples of the utility of coercion to improve the health and well being of society. Namely, the use of coercion to remove statist influences in order to unleash the promise of capitalism and liberty (see 1776).

This discussion is about utility. Your argument is that a man can steal something and increase total utility, because the gain for the theif is more than the victim’s loss. This is absolutely false.

again, if a resource that can improve the quality and the productivity of society is being denied from use because of an inefficient and negligent owner who refuses to engage in a peaceful exchange – then coercion that releases the resource to a more efficient use is desirable and beneficial to society.

by the ancap definition, statists can squander societal resources in the name of egalitarianism and central governance forever without challenge since the ancap rejects the use of coercion to achieve ends irrespective of how beneficial those ends become.

weren’t you suppose to stop these kinds of posts?

head explodes

Debate Tactic 197: When a position you hold is threatened, pretend you never held it.

filc,

simple question.

if this thread is garbage and spam (by your definition) , why are you contributing ?

what has changed that led you to enter the discussion, as opposed to deriding the entire thread ?

I never stated that peaceful exchange was impossible.-Rettoper

head explodes

Debate Tactic 197: When a position you hold is threatened, pretend you never held it.–azure

try reading my posts and your head wouldnt be exploding so often:

a profitable capitalist will identify poorly defended and under utilized valued resources and enlist a PDA to annex the resource by force **when it cannot be obtained by peaceful means.—**Rettoper, Posted: Fri, Sep 17 2010 5:03 PM

peaceful exchange will be preferred and more frequent. Rettoper, Posted: Sat, Sep 18 2010 8:37 PM

Except when the exchange involves defense of property correct?

Who will dictate what is being efficiently mannered and not efficiently mannered? How do you know when to use coercion?

Typically capital assets get moved around via transaction. In the case where an owner does not want this, assuming he owe’s no debt then he’s bought and paid for that property. According to “Society” he’s given a sufficient amount resources to justify ownership over that property. You can’t just come along arbitrarily as a dictator and have a sudden change of opinion that his property could be used for something more productive.

Could it be that in my opinion something more productive could be done to your house? Does that give us justification to throw you out and rebuild it as the majority sees fit? If society detirmines the value of property, and what their productive use is worth, then those items get tallied into the cost of the good apon aquisition. IE, you cannot say that property is not being placed into it’s most productive use, as those who aquired said goods had to pay “society” a vast sum of resources to justify ownership over it. Society(individuals) were satisfied at the time of the sale, they can’t go back on it later.

of land, if someone legitimately retains ownership over land, and say perhaps his business failed,

How does this example apply in a free market? To me it seems like this problem would only occur in your liberal democracy. If it could save millions, thats millions of dollars to earn. What are the odds of an insecticide manufacturer inventing a new producting and for “environmental” reasons decide not to release it?

The first example makes no sense, the second example wouldn’t happen. Insecticide manufacturers don’t make insecticide only to restrict it from store shelves.

Can you offer any better examples besides those two?

How did the owner first aquire this resource?

Can you re-word this, it’s hard to read and doesn’t make sense. According to you I don’t know how your mis-representing the ancap position. We argue that the price mechanism will deal with these anomalies.

Strike 2 Rettoper. Actually it’s strike 3, if you count your calling me a bigot on my profile page. One more and you’re out.

Everybody else, please make my job easier by also not indulging in “meta-arguments” (arguing about Rettoper’s faulty argumentation) or anything approaching “cheap shots” against Rettoper.