Why do people think that quantum physics renders current logic useless?

So all this time, quantum logic is actually not a type of logic (properly so called) but is rather a way of thinking that helps one understand the seeming illogic of QM?

And I’m not too sure but I think that technically, the laws of thought are really described by cognitive science while the normative rules for perfect inferences are found in logic.

Is it true, as I infered from Clayton’s post about the law of non-contradiction, that classical logic is in some way, a meta-logic of quantum logic -since obviously one needs logic to interpret QM?

I believe you missed a crucial point, because classically, there is nothing wrong with an object orbiting another object within an acceleration field. But accelerating charge emits an EM field which reduces the energy of the electron and would cause it to decay into the atom according to the Rutherford model if I’m not mistaken. I’m only in my third semester of physics, so I could be completely off point.

If supernatural forces didn’t exist under the laws governed by God then you wouldn’t have the emergence of life and other miracles you see in creation. Therefore, God exists

And what exactly are these mathematics describing how God works? ^That is the most ridiculous analogy I have ever heard. You should know the difference between the use of the word “law” in describing scientific phenomena and political/religous laws.

universe is expanding and not collapsing into a singularity even though all matter attracts all other matter through the gravitational force

The big bang, inflation; these concepts are lost on you?

Banned, you will soon learn that the laws of electromagnetism breakdown at the atomic realm. Acceleration due to an electromagnetic field have little consequence in atomic orbitals. The Rutherford Model was just an approximation. You will soon learn the Bohr Model was a better representation of atomic orbitals. However, it was still unable to answer so many questions. Then you will learn that the Bohr model was replaced with Schrodinger’s wave model that finally answered all the anamolies dealing with atomic orbitals.

The central point that quantum theory presents is that at the sub-atomic, atomic, and molecular level, dimensions like space, energy, momentum, and so forth don’t exist smoothly. They exist in clumps… called quanta. Meaning that you can’t have values for dimensions like 1, 1.0004643, 2.38330… ect. but they have discrete values like 1, 4, 8, 16,… only and no values in between.

Sorry If I wasn’t clear. I was trying to say that according to the Rutherford model the attom would collapse because the electron decays since it must radiate energy as it acclerates and no longer has enough energy to stay in orbit, rather than collapsing just because of gravitational acceleration and electrostatic force, is that correct?

Thanks for your reply. I’ve enjoyed everything you’ve said in this thread, it’s really fascinating.

QM is utter nonsense. It is an afront to all logic and rationality in science.

The problem actually goes all the way back to the likes of Kepler, Galileo, et. al., and eventually Newton. Once Newton laid down his mathematical “law” of gravitation, physics never recovered, and has since descended into a rabbit hole of irrationality that would give any organized religion a run for their money. Physicists have been using an incorrect formulation of the scientific method for hundreds of years now. Rationality has been sacrificed at the altar of quantitative prediciton.

Physics is actually a priori and deductive. The building block of any theory of physics is 3D form, ie, shape. Any hypothesis or theory can be formulated by laying out the shape of the objects, their relationship to one another, the definitions, and the rules of behavior. Explanations can then be logically deduced. It is much, much simpler than what the mathematicians would want you to believe, as they would reject this formulation as childish and pedantic. Unfortunately for them they implicitly make use of this method since every single variable in every single one of their equations ultimately reduces to a relationship between objects, they have just completely ignored logical consistency.

The basic idea is that as long as the equations get the numbers right, who cares if the physical interpretations are completely irrational. QM can predict quantities very accurately, and I have no problem with that. What I have a major problem with is the claim that they have “proved” certain physical interpretations, or that there is a single explanation anywhere in QM, or physics as a whole.

QM has its roots in Young’s slit experiment. At the time, physicists thought that there was no rational way to explain the experiment, so the only option was to abandon what reason was left in classical mechanics. Feynmann’s interpretation says that the particle in the experiment travels every possible path in the universe simultaneously, and interferes with itself! Basically, anything goes in QM.

The problem is that physicists have ever really only considered two structures, the wave and the particle. Neither of these can be successful in explaining our most basic observations, although they are very convenient for the mathematical physicists who want to do everything with equations. Interestingly enough, there IS a rational explanation for not only Young’s experiment, but also many other basic things like gravity and magnetism. The physicists never considered the idea of ropes!

I don’t endorse thread theory quite yet, but I think that it is A) the only rational theory of physics I’ve ever come across, and B) has an explanatory power which is far, far superior to any of the other “theories.” It is based on what is called the rope hypothesis, which I pretty much accept at this point. It proposes that every atom in the universe is connected to every other atom in the universe via double intertwined electromagnetic ropes. Basically, just imagine two threads wrapped around one another, like a DNA helix without the rungs. All of a sudden so many of the mysteries which couldn’t be explained before with waves or particles make a lot more sense. For instance, just think about how EM propogation is visualized as alternating and perpendicular E and M fields, the rope is the rational physical interpretation for that! Light is just torsion along the rope, and this explains why QM theorists hold that light seems to depart and arrive as a particle, but travel as a wave. It explains why light is so fast, why it travels along a straight path, and why its velocity is constant regardless of the velocity of the body which is emitting it (no need to invoke special relativistic nonsense or bizzare QM interpretations).

If you want more info on this stuff check out:

www.youtube.com/bgaede

I finally coughed up the change to buy his book, and I will say to any physics nerds out there, it is WELL worth it. I have problems with the theory, but it clears up so much confusion. I highly recommend it!

@unlapped_dog: I think you’re being too hard on QM but, all in all, I think you are right that we have become addicted to numeracy in the sciences, and much to our detriment. If you think about it, pure numbers in the physical world can only refer to ratios of like quantities. Any other sort of numeration of the physical world relies on the human mind (or some other mind, perhaps) to recognize and enumerate the phenomenon. It is not a physical fact that there are so many chairs in this room or so many planets revolving around the Sun. Those are conventional facts which rely on a widely understood and accepted definition of what constitutes a chair and what constitutes a planet. But the geometrical relationships between the sides of three objects arranged in a triangular manner must obey the laws of trigonemetry, that is, they behave according to numerical laws which express ratios between like and like (length and length).

Here’s a fascinating quote I stumbled across in Wikipedia once:

It kind of reminded me of the Austrian approach to economics. :slight_smile:

If you’d really like to bend your brain, try taking a look at this. Personally, I think our universe is pretty obviously computational. Is it once again the case that our physics has yet to catch up with our mathematics?

Clayton -

The biggest problem with physics and quantum mechanics is TIME. It is simply ignored by scientists.

This couldn’t be further from the truth. In classical mechanics time was regarded as a constant and was used to imply an interval in which something happened, or the rate at which something happened. However, considering light speed to be invariant, time becomes a variable dependant on an observer, just like a location in space depends on an observer, or reference point from which an observation is made. In quantum mechanics, time plays a key role in interpreting the state of a quantum object, as well as the probability of finding an object in a given space at a given time, also, time is used to represent an uncertainty, since conjugate pairs cannot be simultaneously known within a certain precision (based on the Uncertainty Principle).

But if you have some insight into time that is ignored or unknown by mainstream physics, why don’t you write a research paper on it and get it published?

Don’t those two quotations contradict each other?

Have you observed any of those “ropes”? Can you show me any of them?

How do you know that he didn’t?

Besides, assuming that he hasn’t done so, is his opinion automatically suspect?

Let’s handle this a bit differently than how Banned did.

Can you substantiate that? Can you explain how scientists ignore time?

@banned, IRyan: Take a look at The End of Time by Julian Barbour, he presents some of his ideas here. Time really is the least understood aspect of the physical world. Time seems to “pass by” or “flow” and there is nothing else to which we can point as an analogy. Time is tangled into the very idea of law. If something behaves according to a sufficiently regular pattern that we can write down a simple mathematical equation which describes it (a “law”), then why does time need to be taken into account at all? Time becomes extraneous and can be discarded for the purposes of comprehending the phenomenon.

I don’t take this as literally as Barbour seems to - his view of the universe is what he calls “Platonia”, a sort of eternal, frozen aggregation of all moments in time that are, ever were and ever will be. It’s almost theological. However, I think that Barbour’s analysis shows that there are deep, unresolved problems in our conception of physics and that many of these problems cluster around the nature of time.

Clayton -

“Have you observed any of those “ropes”? Can you show me any of them?”

Have you observed a Hermitian operator?

I don’t know. I haven’t even ever heard of those words.

According to quantum mechanics, every observable quantity corresponds to some Hermitian operator. But nobody has ever observed one of these Hermitian operators. It is taken on faith.

a hermitian operator is not a thing like an electron or a photon, its a mathematical device…so ‘observing’ one isn’t on the agenda.

have you observed a logarithm? a square-root? a complex number?

Also QED famously has predicted measurements which have been empirically confirmed to extra-ordinary accuracy, which is not something to be sniffed at.

That’s precisely the point. You can’t observe them physically. You can’t prove Hermitian operators (or any other mathematical construct) of quantum mechanics have anything to do with the physical world. You can prove mathematical statements about them, but you can’t derive a physical meaning from them.

I don’t think that’s all that controversial…

If there are superior mathematical formalisms and models that make superior predictions than do those of existing Quantum theory then have at it… but… we may have gotten sidetracked from the opening post?

If Hermitian operators, wave functions, and Hilbert spaces don’t have a physical meaning, then quantum mechanics isn’t physics.