Why the bloody hell do people believe that states are rational actors?

I’m starting to study international relations right now at the college I am going to. International relations happens to be one of my majors. I am taking two classes: Approaches to International Relations, and I’m taking National Security and the Changing world. And I believe that I am becoming more and more of an anarchist as I take this class. The topic title just focuses on one aspect that I just wanted to talk about, but, there is another myth that I wanted to discuss.

The first myth about states being rational actors is what really pushed me over the edge. I know that I am a very fluctuating person… like I’ve been with many places on the spectrum before. I don’t like to label myself… and I don’t personally consider myself an anarchist, necessarily. That’s just the spectrum where I am now.

But back to the topic, I can’t honestly see how states are seen as rational actors. I am more inclined to agree with the realist approach that states just do whatever they feel is necessary to promote their national interest and they often tend to ignore morality. I agree with the liberal approach in that Democratic states tend not to go to war with each other and if there were more free markets and more free trade than we would have more interdependence with one another and the international system would be more at peace.

All of the dominant schools of thought, I guess except for the radical school of thought, tends to look at states as rational actors. As if these states were people who were capable of making decisions. I honestly can’t put a finger about how much this drives me mad to no end. States certainly call themselves rational actors. But are they really? One quick look at our domestic policy and we’d see a corporate state that oppresses its own people and a government that has no respect for its constitutional rights. One quick looks at our foreign policy would reveal a nation that is hungry for oil and raw materials and one that often back tracks on its belief in free-markets, in supporting the propping of authoritarian regimes around the world.

Other states wish to promote their own ideology or they wish to promote like peace, or, they may promote whatever they wish to promote. They enter in alliances with other nations and they have wars. These states have wars over ethnic conflicts, and they have wars over energy. How can states be considered rational when one looks at how childish they act with one another in order to just survive? States take Hobbe’s too literally while ignoring the fact that their rivals are human too. In other words, I don’t believe that states are rational actors. At least, not among those that they consider rivals.

The second thing that pushed me over the edge is how states are considered rational actors but they don’t view NGOs in the same light. How can people think of the Soviet Union as a legitimate body politics while not thinking of the PLO, Hammas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, or other groups that wish to pursue a similar oppressive ideology as not one? It’s not as if states have a monopoly over legitimacy. If states try to spread a war of aggression against other nations that’s considered legitimate. But when a private organization does it? They suddenly become irrational actors. I say both states and NGOs that have those ideological aims and pursue them through violence are both irrational.

I’ve also been learning about in the class that I’m taking in National Security how people believe that we must pursue our national interest with the threat of force. That’s the narrow view of national security of course. My professor doesn’t necessarily believe that we should always use force (I have the same professor for both classes), but, like this is what a lot of people believe in! They don’t think we should use diplomacy or soft power. They ignore that and they just want to go right to the military or economic power.

These things have been pushing me over the edge. First of all, I would like to ask if anyone has an answer to my first question. And has anyone else had a similar experience or enlightenment? I just think all of these myths about states are nuts. I can’t believe how many people keep repeating them as if they were the epitome of truth. People talk about the need for bi-partisanship in our foreign policy, but, that would only screw us over even more.

Have you read (Alexander?) Wendt his article ‘Anarchy is what states make of it’?

In any case; the ‘rational actor’ view is a short hand in international relationship that is (sort of) defended like this: ‘well, obviously there are many conflicting views within a nation, but on foreign policy there is a good enough reason that there is sufficient unity to assume that the state is an actor as a whole as such’. I think it’s sort of that view, and I think there is a fair argument for it. Obviously; a general theory concerning international relations needs to take into account what happens in the ‘black box’ of governments (vis a vis other governments) but it does help to clarify certain things.

That’s an interesting view. I agree that if a state has a foreign policy where they work with other nations and creates an acceptable environment for others than they could very well be considered rational actors. In the long run I think that states are more interested in power politics, and developed nations are like big bullies on the play grounds. They have a bunch of friends but when some smaller guy tries to come up with them and play with them and he doesn’t like them he leaves him out of the game. If they don’t have something we want or we don’t like the way their system is, if, they’re not “cooperating” with us, they’re out of the game. That’s how I view inter-national rivalries and that’s just why I say that states don’t act rational in the sense that they can bully other nations around, just for being different, rather than treating them like a human being.

wrong

The ‘rational actor’ assumption doesn’t get refuted by the fact that the USA has a bad foreign policy from your perspective? You do realize that the term ‘rational’ is actually used relatively Misesian (and I mean very relatively): the view states as rational because they are viewed as a (more or less) unitary actor that has ends and uses means. Obvously; the state can’t be a unitary actor strictly speaking, but it’s an assumption they make to make it all easier.

Given the methodological limitations of political science, I think this is justified. It’s a bad way of thinking, but it’s the best that is possible (imo).

You might want to edit your post. It looks like what you wanted to say didn’t go through or something.

AdrianHealy

I would half agree with it then. States are rational actors to an extent but when they stop being rational towards their allies they act irrationally towards their enemies. Yes, they’re able to make decisions about what they want to do, but I don’t think we can say states are rational because we can’t really make good predictions about who they are going to ally with or what they’re going to do based on what they say they’ll do. I think states are psychopathic liars.

It’s not just the US that does it. The UN and NATO is also involved in it. Even though people say that imperialism ended long ago for a long time European states were supporting the conflict in East Timor (http://www.us-uk-interventions.org/East_Timor.html). The UN has also supported various missions of intervention like the one in Boznia, and Somalia in the 1990s. The tendency for various developing states to go after undeveloped states still exists.

Really; check out the constructivist school of thought. From all 3 ‘big’ schools, they are the one that make the most ‘austrian-like’ points. Ironically; the guy I referred to (Wendt) was a Marxist, who also wrote on the need for world government in the face of aliens. But besides him being nuts; the article (and his book on constructivist international relations) is actually pretty good. He does concede a lot that (basically) wrong methodology, but he makes a fair amount of good points, especially in the paper.

Come on; a paper (in international relations) called: ‘anarchy is what states make of it’. This ought to be good, right? :smiley:

I’m sort of devils advocate here, but why would that be ‘irrational’ from the point of view of the acting person? Again: a ‘psychopatic liar’ can be very ‘rational’ in this sense.

It makes sense, from the point of view of the people who make the decisions within a state, to have foreign intervention, even if it’s bad for a whole lot of other people. That’s what the monopoly on force does.

AdrianHealey

That’s interesting now that you put it in that perspective. I’ll certainly be sure to check it out. I don’t want to close my mind off to other ideas. About the principle of rationality, I believe that Mises and the other Austrian writers made it clear that rationality applied to individuals. They made it a point to say that it didn’t apply to states. There is a ton of Austrian stuff about how they don’t like sociology because it views society as a collective whole rather than individual people making decisions. In that sense, the state isn’t rational, but the people that make it up are.

I’ll be sure to check that book out.

AdrianHealy

I guess if you wanted to take a literal view than yes, psychopathic liars can be rational. But, I was thinking about the word rational as opposed to being irrational. Like it isn’t spontaneous, and it doesn’t just do whatever the heck it feels like, or anything like that. Just because someone is rational doesn’t mean that they can’t be irrational sometimes.

I guess that’s one way of looking at it.

International relations is interesting stuff though I think you’re thinking about states being rational in the logical sense. Foreign policy is very complex and just using actions as an example of it being proof does not refute something that theorist spend their lifes studying and writing about.

pentahedron

If states were rational actors then why would they agree to certain treaties or various economic policies that they knew would be more detrimental to them in the long run? The US, Canada and Mexico entered a “free trade agreement” but in reality the treaty was more hurtful to their interests in the sense that it actually brought more consequences on freedom of movement, and other aspects like how it made the countries more forced to follow the GATT, and other laws that restricted what people in the nation could or couldn’t do (http://www.nassauinstitute.org/articles/article693.php?view=print). Why would nations enter in agreements that they know aren’t good for them if they were rational actors?

People who guide our foreign policy don’t think in terms of how the states actions will benefit or harm the individual. They think in terms of what they(the state) can do to consolidate and grab more power relative to other states.And the idea of negotiated trade agreements is a good example compared to unilaterally abolishing their barriers to trade. Each state still wants to have the advantage in trade compared to their partners which is why we we engage in trade wars with our allies over what we can and can’t export/import.